A Little Bit of Light

In this podcast episode, Ric Shields and Phil Taylor, discuss the difficult topic of grieving during the holiday season. They share their personal and professional experiences with grief, emphasizing the importance of healthy grieving and self-care, especially for ministers. They also discuss the challenges of conducting memorial services during the holiday season. Taylor encourages listeners to find hope in the midst of grief, reminding them that even in the darkest times, "there is a little bit of light."

Transcript

Ric Shields (00:00):

I'm so glad you've joined us on this podcast. I'm Ric Shields, your host, and the director of the DoorWays Ministry Network. Today, I'm happy to talk with my friend, pastor Phil Taylor, who served as the senior pastor at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma for 38 years before he retired in May 2023. Thank you so much, Phil, for joining me today. I really appreciate you taking the time to do this with me.

Phil Taylor (00:23):

Absolutely. Always happy to be with you.

Ric Shields (00:26):

Well, we're recording this episode just really a few days before Christmas. I've asked you to join me in discussing the difficult topic of grieving, the loss of a loved one through the holiday season. The two of us are familiar with this topic, both personally and professionally as ministers. We've gone to homes and hospitals together when friends and parishioners died, and you performed countless memorial and graveside services. I say countless. I'm confident you probably have a pretty good estimate of how many of officiated, if you really think about it. How many memorial and graveside services do you think you've officiated over the years when you served as pastor?

Phil Taylor (01:03):

You know, uh, I didn't keep track, but I have the notes for all of them that I did. And, uh, the first one, I, first one I did was in 1980. I was the associate pastor at that time, so...

Ric Shields (01:16):

You should have been 25 years old.

Phil Taylor (01:17):

So I was, uh, how old was I in 80? Yeah. Was that how old I was? Math is hard. Yeah. I've, I've probably done, you know, 700 or something, uh, in, in the last 40 some years or whatever. Uh,

Ric Shields (01:32):

I think in the last 10 years you've done about 700 <laugh>,

Phil Taylor (01:36):

You know, the Yeah, the last three years, certainly the numbers were, were up. I, you know, probably the most I did in a year was 25 or somewhere under 30. Anyway, so it's part of

Ric Shields (01:47):

An aging congregation too. Carbondale is a multi-generational church.

Phil Taylor (01:51):

Absolutely.

Ric Shields (01:53):

And so, part of that is that then there, there are always people who are coming to that end of their life, and as the church grows, you have more people in that situation.

Phil Taylor (02:04):

Yeah. That's part of it. And certainly though, over the years, you know, we had memorial services for infants and kids and teenagers and young married people, all, it's exactly what it is, a multi-generational church. And so, uh, you share in, in all the, the joys and the, and the grief of a congregation.

(02:23):

Brother McQueen, the pastor before me, and that I worked with for nine years before I became the lead pastor, uh, he used to say, well, you serve one generation, and you bury another. There was some truth to that. In, in spending such a long time at one church, 47 years, you know, on staff at one church, we've

Ric Shields (02:40):

Served <crosstalk>. Yeah, because you served as an associate pastor, a youth pastor, associate pastor for nine years prior to becoming the senior pastor.

Phil Taylor (02:47):

Right. Uh, so, yeah. And, you know, and there's a, there's a kind of grief that goes with that for, for pastors and, and people in ministry that the, you know, these aren't clients that die. These are friends and family members, people that, in my case, because I actually attended Carbondale before I became, uh, you know, involved in ministry on, on staff. Uh, so I've known them since I was 12 years old, some of these, so they were very much family for those who are ministers.

(03:15):

You know, I, I would encourage you to kind of do some self-care in terms of the losses that you experience as well. These are dear people that you're privileged. I always felt that way. I was privileged to be a part of their life and a part of their family, and, and to be with family. I've sat with, I couldn't tell you how many people and watch them take their last breath, including my own parents.

(03:40):

It's, I always feel like that's an honor somehow that the timing was right, that I could be there and just kind of, it's, you know, the whole thing about Christmas is incarnation, that God became man and dwelt among us. And I feel like that's part of the call of a pastor, or, or any believer in that sense is for us to live incarnation. And especially then as, as people go through, uh, grief and in the Christmas season, let's, let's be there for them. Let's, let's be like Jesus. Let's be incarnational and present in their lives just to be a friend and to encourage them, you know, through the season. So

Ric Shields (04:20):

What do you mean when you use the word incarnational?

Phil Taylor (04:23):

What we say theologically, the incarnation is God becoming flesh. You know, it's exactly what John says in, in the gospel of John chapter one, that, uh, you know, God became flesh and made his dwelling among us, and we beheld his glory. So, God became present with us. And that's, that's what our role is. Then as pastors, or again, just as believers, that we're going to, we're going to flesh out God's mercy and love and grace by being with people.

(04:53):

You know, uh, Isaiah says that the, the child's name talking about the Messiah, Jesus would be Emmanuel God with us. And I think a big part of, of what we do in terms of helping someone through grief is to be with them. So, to live incarnation is to be present in people's lives. We don't just drop in. Uh, that's what I was saying before. These aren't clients that we say, well, our time with you, today's up, you know, <laugh> and, uh, so we get to see you for 40 minutes and you know, there's the checkout.

Ric Shields (05:23):

Please see the receptionist at the door and we'll see you in exactly two weeks.

Phil Taylor (05:26):

Yeah. We'll see you in two weeks. Instead, we come alongside and sit with them and say, okay, this is what God's with us. Jesus is with us, and we're, we're with you too.

(05:36):

So, the Jewish people and the Jewish faith has a, a different kind of take on the grief process. Uh, they talk about that you sit shiva with them, uh, and to set Shiva with someone is essentially, yeah. You come and, and you sit on a low chair and you're there, uh, for a period of days to just be present. If you want to talk, we're here to talk. And if you just want to sit in silence, we're here. Uh, you know, the Bible says we weep with those who weep, and we rejoice with those who rejoice. So, we're going to show up and, and weep with you a bit. And, uh, because that's, that's part of

Ric Shields (06:14):

Yeah, that's a good picture. I like that. Well, my premise is that holidays and maybe especially Christmas, are difficult for those who grieve the loss of a loved one. And I think you'll agree with me, but I, I wonder why it is, it seems that the Christmas holiday is so difficult.

Phil Taylor (06:30):

I don't know if it's fair to say. Maybe, maybe it's because the, uh, there's some extremes there that we, you know, that we say to people, everything's about, well, Merry Christmas, and it's the most wonderful time of the year. The contrast is so stark, boy, you know, everybody's smiling and there's presents and people are getting together, and oh, we're going to get, we're having a party and all that, and you've lost someone. And so, there's nothing merry about what you're feeling inside. So, on a normal day, nobody's saying, Hey, isn't this a great day to you? Or for the most part, but Christmas. Then there's this kind of stark contrast, and it just then kind of beats us down.

(07:11):

Those of us who maybe have experienced loss or, you know, just depression or whatever. It kind of comes with that. So, while everybody else has gotten the house all lit up, you turn all the lights out and sit in the dark because your heart's broken. It's like, well, I don't want to be around happy people. You know, so, so I, I think that's part of it is just the, the size of the contrast, maybe that it's, it's not necessarily exaggerated, but it is a little more, uh, more so maybe at the Christmas season than, than any other times

Ric Shields (07:40):

Ever a time when you were called on during Christmas Eve, or even Christmas day when someone's loved one was dying.

Phil Taylor (07:46):

Uh, yeah, I, I've tried to think back. You know, I'm, I'm not sure I could come up with particular names, but yeah, I've, I've gone out on Christmas Eve or Christmas Day to make hospital calls when someone was close to dying. I've done funerals. I don't know that I've ever done one on Christmas Eve, but I've certainly done them on, on, uh, the 23rd of December. And, and immediately after Christmas, you know, you know, I kind of used some kind of message, you know, we talked about, uh, people receiving gifts and let's think of this person's life as, as the extraordinary gift that he or she was to family or whatever, tried to couch it in terms that was already on people's minds about, uh, Christmas gifts and that kind of thing. But, you know, it's, especially, yeah, it is especially difficult.

(08:31):

People kind of mark the passing of someone by those days. So, you know, people would say, oh, I, I sure hope they don't die tomorrow. That's Christmas. Or I hope they don't die Thursday because that's my birthday, or whatever. Uh, the reality is, whatever day someone dies, we, we mark the loss, uh, you know, of that day. And, and it takes on a kind of significance to us that doesn't necessarily have to mar a holiday or a birthday or whatever, but it certainly, it

Ric Shields (09:00):

Has an impact on it.

Phil Taylor (09:02):

Yeah. It has an impact on it that.

Ric Shields (09:03):

Or leaves a scar.

Phil Taylor (09:04):

Yeah. Yeah, it does. Yeah.

Ric Shields (09:06):

You know, holiday memorial services, I suppose, can be a logistical nightmare. Volunteers and staff were probably away visiting family members and winter weather can throw a wrench. And even the best of plans. What are some of the challenges you have to overcome so the family feels like they've been appropriately served?

Phil Taylor (09:24):

Yeah, good question. Uh, yeah, you're right. It is a challenge. A lot of times, you know, the other staff is gone, or, yeah, we've had to postpone services or, you know, I can remember in recent years, we couldn't drive to the cemetery. The roads were too bad, or the funeral home just had to take the, the, the body back to the funeral home and wait few days until they could reschedule a burial because the, of the conditions outside and things. So, you know, obviously that's, that kind of takes a toll on, on family as well.

(09:56):

But once again, it's, I think it's a matter of we're going to do everything we can to just show that we value this person, we value this family. You know, I've, I've always just kind of figured I'm going to let them lead the way. You know, if, if you think it's too dangerous or if the funeral home says it's too dangerous, then hey, we're going to, we'll accommodate, we'll accommodate that to do it on a different day. Or if you, if you guys are comfortable, I'll get to church. We'll be there and, and we'll do the service and, and do the best we can. So

Ric Shields (10:27):

It's always difficult when family has holiday plans to be together, and then a loved one passes. And so, you're saying, Hey, while everybody's here, yeah, maybe we should just go ahead and have a service. And it seems like such a good idea, and it probably is logistically, at least it's a good idea, but wow, it just is such a toll to pay for everyone being there at the same time, and when their plans are something totally different than what they were dealt. It

Phil Taylor (10:50):

Is, yeah, it is. At the same time, I think, you know, I think you can, you can shift the focus a little bit. I said that about, we kind of marked days, uh, in Isaiah chapter six, the prophet said, in the year that King Uzziah died, he said, I saw the Lord high and lifted up. And his, his glory, his presence are trained, his sovereignty filled the temple.

(11:13):

So, Isaiah was a, was a counselor to King Uzziah. And oftentimes if a king died, there was this change. So, all the counselors are thrown out or maybe killed as somebody else takes over, you know, that kind of thing. So, Uzziah died, and Isaiah's thinking, well, am I going to have a job? Am I, am I going to be alive? What's going to happen in the midst of this? But in, in that, then he says, I saw the Lord in the year that he died. I had a revelation of God.

(11:44):

And I, I'm, I'm saying that to say this in the midst of that, if it's Christmas time and everybody's gathered there and then, you know, dad dies or whatever, in that moment, then there's an opportunity in that for us to see the Lord. And in spite of our grief, that we can boy, uh, as, as horrible as is that, that we've lost someone at the same time, how wonderful it is that we were all here, we're all going to be able to share in this moment, and maybe we can see the Lord, we redirect it. Not that we don't grieve, but as you know, as Paul said, we sorrow, we grieve, but not as those who have no hope.

(12:22):

And so, let's, let's use this time to talk about dad and or mom or whoever it was, and let's, let's shift the focus, um, not only to share in the pain of what we've lost, but let's recall. I mean, I think that's part of what families do at any time is let's remember the days, you know, so Isaiah's remembering the, the moment the day winning lost somebody, but in the midst of that, he's seeing something even greater and, and there's new purpose in it. So, I think there's opportunity for that. Uh, boy, we're all here. Let's drag out the pictures and the old home movies and, and, uh, let's, let's cry and laugh together, you know? And, there's, I think there's value to be found in that.

Ric Shields (13:07):

I've actually used that previously with families when they lost a loved one, and so many were gathered together and helped redirect them and say, look, we can either remember this as a time that we were all just shocked and it, and it just, you know, took the wind out of our sails. Or why don't we spend a couple of minutes and let's worship together. Let's sing some songs. Let's tell some stories, and let's remember this as a time when we were able to honor them, love them, share with each other, and, and that seems to work really well. I'd encourage other people to consider that depending on the opportunity, the situation.

(13:41):

I served for several months as a chaplain for a hospice program in Tulsa. And I was at the bedsides of scores of people who transitioned from this life and into eternity. And I did my best to help prepare families for that time. But my experience was largely secondhand until four years ago, actually four years ago today, when our beautiful daughter-in-Law Blair, died tragically just 12 days before Christmas. And in that moment, all of my training and experience just seemed meaningless. It was a very difficult task that I assumed to lead my family into a season of healthy grieving. Now, I use the term healthy grieving, and I wonder, are there any thoughts you'd like to share, Phil, with our listeners, about healthy grieving during the holiday season?

Phil Taylor (14:33):

Grief is an interesting thing. You know, there's sociologists and psychologists that have, that have studied it and, and, uh, you know, Kubler Ross came up with, uh, you know, the stages of grief and, uh, and all of those things. I always talk about grief being kind of a, kind of a, a, a cyclical kind of thing that, you know, we, we kind of think, oh, we're, we're making some progress here. And then suddenly something happens. There's a, a thought, a memory, somebody says something, a smell, you know, just something that reminds us. And then it feels like we, we've kind of dropped again. And, uh, you know, it's, it's an up and down kind of thing. And grief is not a, it's not an over and done kind of thing. It's not a one-time thing, you know, it's like, well, I can't believe I'm still grieving a loss two years later.

(15:20):

Well, uh, like you said, there's healthy grieving, and there's unhealthy grieving. And, uh, the healthy part, I think is to, uh, is to place appropriate, uh, value on the person and on the relationship we had, and the gift that they were to us, and the lessons that we learned from them. And, you know, to kind of embrace the legacy that they gave us. Let's make some changes, maybe that that helps to honor that person. The, the unhealthy stuff is when we kind of just get stuck and to say, well, life can't ever be good again. You know, and, and, uh, we can't move from there. There's a, there's a way that we, I think, kind of release that person to God and to the Lord's presence, and we're able to say, and Lord, I know they're with you, and you're going to take good care of them, and there's good things happening for them and for me, then I'm going to find out how to carry on, you know, in, in this.

(16:20):

And knowing that God, you've still got a plan and purpose for my life. Uh, and my loved one fulfilled that purpose in an earthly sense and is already home in, in God's presence. I've tried to think in my own, you know, and we grieve other things besides people dying, but that's kind of what we're focused on right now. Uh, but we grieve loss of any kind. Maybe it's a divorce or a relationship that's broken up or whatever else. Uh, I think there's a place for us to just, you know, try to continually on a daily basis, surrender it all to the Lord, God, I don't understand this, and I'm left with all these why's, but I'm, I'm just going to put this in your hands, and today, uh, I just have to get through today. I'm going to keep breathing in and out, and there's going to be sufficient grace for me to get through today.

(17:07):

So, I, I'm not sure that's answering your question, but, you know, I think, I think that's how we, we find some health once again, uh, is to stay focused on Jesus and to start looking outward again, you know, for ways to serve others. If we become too inward, uh, you know, and shut ourselves in, there comes a moment when we say, okay, I have to, I have to reengage people. We'll say it to you. Well, you know, that's what she would've wanted or that's what he would've wanted. And the truth is, yeah, that may or may not be, but that's what has to happen. We need to go on with our, with our line. That's right.

Ric Shields (17:41):

I've often pointed out that Jesus told us in the Sermon on the Mount, he said, blessed are those who mourn, or they should be comforted. And they tell people somehow mourning brings us comfort. Yeah. And the Lord blesses that. And when we don't, then we're not comforted. So, let's find ways to approach us in a way that's, that's healthy, that honors God, that honors our loved one and helps us to move through these days ahead.

Phil Taylor (18:09):

Uh, Ric, I remember when, um, when Oral and Evelyn Roberts, when their daughter, Rebecca, and her husband, you know, were killed in a plane crash, then oral, uh, they had the memorial service at Christ Chapel in ORU. In fact, brother McQueen was on staff, uh, or Brother McQueen was the pastor then, if I recall. And at one point in time, the Roberts had attended Central Assembly downtown in Tulsa when Brother McQueen was the pastor. So, they asked him to be a part of the service. And, and after that, then after the service, then I remember soon after that oral and Evelyn, uh, recorded a program and, and kind of sat down and talked about this. And, and Oral had said that this was sowing a seed in a sense for him. And that was, you know, of course, his theology or whatever, but that in order to find healing through the grief, they needed to talk, and they needed to share.

(19:03):

They needed to, to kind of declare what they know about life and God and his faithfulness and whatever. And though that was a tough thing and is that, if I remember correctly, Evelyn was kind of hesitant, and she, and he said, no, we have to do this. This is how we move through this.

(19:22):

I think that was pretty good advice. I'm not saying you need to, you know, record a podcast or whatever. To, for somebody to get through their grief. But at the same time, I think hearing yourself say some things about what you know and what you believe, even though everything's been reduced to bedrock, it seems like for you, but through, through that healthy grief for you to say, I don't understand why this has happened, but here's what I know for sure. God is a good God. I know that Jesus loves me. I know he's prepared a place for me and for my family. And so, this person that I love, I believe they're in God's presence. I believe his grace is sufficient to reach them. And maybe by, maybe by sharing that with others, maybe by getting out of yourself and looking to others and, and kind of saying some of those things. I think there is some health that comes to you because again, you're, you're reaffirming what you know to be true in a really, really difficult season of your life.

Ric Shields (20:21):

You're listening to the DoorWays Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields, and I'm joined on this episode with Phil Taylor, the pastor emeritus at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Phil served for nine years as a youth pastor and associate pastor, followed by 38 years as a senior pastor. I'm going to have to mention Pastor Phil, that you were there a long time <laugh>, and you had many opportunities to minister to bereave families, but it's possible that we really don't give much thought to the toll paid by ministers during these difficult times, too. You mentioned something earlier about making certain, if you're a minister, that you're also doing some self-care. Anything you'd like to expound on about that?

Phil Taylor (21:02):

You know, I probably did a bad job <laugh> of it, to be honest. But you know, at the same time, I, I feel like I allowed myself, you know, to grieve with people. I'm not ashamed to, you know, to cry with somebody or to cry during a, you know, memorial service. I, I've heard people say, well, you know, I had to hold it together or whatever. Well, yeah, you can't just sit down and, uh, and fall apart or whatever, but at the same time, there's nothing more appropriate <laugh> than weeping. Those who weep. You know, I've stood in the hallway with somebody who's, you know, baby or loved one has died or whatever. Well, there's no words to say, but you can stand there and hold somebody, put your arm around them or hug them and let them cry, and you cry with them.

(21:50):

That's, that's a pretty big deal. And I can remember back even with kids with a child, or a teenager and as pastor just showing up. I didn't do the service, but I just showed up because their grandpa died, or, uh, somebody they, they loved. And, and to be there and then to have them come up and, you know, you wrap your arms around them and kind of cry with them 40 years later, uh, those kids who are now grown adults can remember that somebody, this pastor showed up at my grandpa's funeral and cried with me.

(22:23):

Uh, you know, there, there's something pretty powerful and, and impactful in that. And, but back to just kind of caring for ourselves, uh, you know, I think that was part of it. Uh, I remember, uh, someone in the medical field, uh, that treated cancer patients, and he was talking about there's always one or two in the year.

(22:41):

You know, you try to keep yourself somewhat emotionally detached because you just can't bear that with everybody. And he, and, but he told me, he said, there's always a couple of people that I kind of have a connection to, and then all my grief kind of pours out in the loss of that person.

(22:58):

And I remember saying, well, I understand that, and that'd be good if, if I was a doctor. And like I said before, and they were clients or patients, but it's not that way for us. So, I think, you know, some, some time off and, and some reflection to be careful if you've done three funerals in a week, yeah. You need to take a couple days off and just rest and kind of pray and let the Holy Spirit just kind of rejuvenate what's worn out of you, because you've given the emotional energy that it takes to, to navigate through that kind of loss. And just being with those people. Boy, that's, that's hard.

Ric Shields (23:32):

Yeah, I agree.

Phil Taylor (23:33):

And you know what, uh, just to add to that, there's nothing wrong with, with seeing a counselor at some point in time. You know, uh, there were a couple times along the way that I called, uh, someone that was a, a psychologist or a counselor, and said, look, I'm at a place where if, if I was giving counsel to a member of my church, I'd say, you probably ought to go talk to somebody, <laugh>. And so, I think I'm at that place. We've lost some really significant people in the church, you know, or people that I was really close to. Hey, can I buy you lunch and let me just unload a little bit and see if you can help me kind of navigate through this, and that that can be pretty helpful too. So

Ric Shields (24:11):

A good word. As we draw our time to a close, I wonder if you would give a word of encouragement and then pray for those who are struggling during this holiday season.

Phil Taylor (24:21):

Absolutely. You know, I've referenced Isaiah a couple of times. He's also the guy, you know, that says, uh, again, in talking about Jesus, that there'll be no more gloom for those who were in distress, that he says he'll honor the Galilee of the Gentiles by way of the sea, because the people walking in darkness have seen a great light. And those living in the land of the shadow of death, a light has dawned Jesus comes, he conquers death through his death and resurrection. But the Apostle Paul tells us, but death is still an enemy. And, and it's the final enemy that'll be under Jesus' feet, uh, in an ultimate sense. But in this season, when it may be really dark, we have to remember that, yeah, Jesus, the light has come, and he has shined his grace upon us. And we know that even though we live in the land of the shadow of death, there's light.

(25:20):

That's how, uh, there's no shadow if there's not light, right? You won't see your shadow if the sun's not shining. And so, there's light there. Let's look for the light. We may not, you know, it's not going to be blinding. It wouldn't even be appropriate if it was. But somewhere in the darkness, for somebody that's listening to this today, there's, there's a little bit of light, there's a little bit of hope that breaks through.

(25:46):

Uh, if, if I can take one more minute, um, during this transition of, of retiring from ministry, someone asked me about successes, you know, and is there something that stands out in my mind? And I said, well, this will probably seem odd. But I remember a Sunday morning, a woman that I'd never seen, and I preached about hope, and I don't know what odd preached about that morning. And she came up to me after service and she said, I just want to tell you. She said, my daughter is a heroin addict. I'm so concerned. And she said, I've just felt hopeless. And this morning I'm leaving here with a little bit of hope. And I said, well, thank you for saying that. A little bit of hope. It goes a long way, and I'm going to be praying for you and for your daughter.

(26:31):

I never saw her again. I don't know what, you know, what happened after that, but there's a little bit of light, regardless of how dark it feels today, or what the memories are that have come back about maybe a tragic loss. And even you referenced that, uh, tragic death of your, uh, precious daughter-in-law those years ago. But there's a little bit of light there because the light has dawned even in the shadow lens. And so, I would just encourage whoever's listening, whoever this is for, I, I went through some dark times.

(27:02):

Well, maybe we'll do another podcast someday and talk about depression and burnout and things. I went through some dark times where at Christmas time, I sat in a completely dark house by myself and thought, Lord, I'm losing hope here. But in those moments, there was a little bit of light that dawned, and that's the good news for us. People who feel like they're just walking and stumbling in darkness, there's a little bit of light even in the shadow of death.

(27:26):

So, I'd love to pray. So, Lord, I thank you for this opportunity that I've had to, to share with my friend Ric, and to talk, Lord, and, and I believe that you can take these words. We've stumbled a bit and rambled a bit, but Lord, that you can take these words and somehow direct it to someone's heart who is, who's kind of trapped in that dark place right now.

(27:46):

And the holiday season somehow just kind of exacerbates the darkness and the sense of grief and loss that they experience. But in place of that Lord shine some light, the light of the world has come. And if we can see that, maybe we just, uh, stare at a nativity scene for a bit and realize that the baby in that manger is the light of the world that's come to us. And there is hope for us, and we've lost loved ones, but we're going to see them again. They're in our future and not our past. And there is light for us, and there is a, there's a new day coming for us, Lord.

(28:24):

And so, even, even when everything seems shadowy and dark, uh, we're going to see your good presence the year that King Isiah died, the year that our loved one died. We, we just continue to look, not just to the grief, but to the Lord, and we'll see you and you'll be there. You're the God who is present. And so, bring your presence and your light to those who are hurting and discouraged today. Let light fill this season, and we'll give you thanks for it as we put our trust in you. In Jesus name, amen. Amen.