Depression: Transparency, Triggers, and Truth

In this episode of the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast, host Ric Shields and guest Pastor Phil Taylor discuss depression, its causes, and ways to manage it. Pastor Taylor, who served as the senior pastor at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma for 38 years, shares his personal experiences with depression. They discuss symptoms of depression and explore potential causes of depression, such as physical biological factors, guilt, regret, life changes, burnout, and unmet expectations. Pastor Phil shares strategies he has found helpful for managing depression. They conclude the episode with a prayer for those struggling with depression or other mood disorders.

Transcript

Depression: Transparency, Triggers, and Truth
Guest: Rev. Phil Taylor

Announcer (00:00):

Welcome to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast.

Ric Shields (00:13):

I'm so glad you've joined us on this podcast. I'm Ric Shields, your host, and the director of the DoorWays® Ministry Network. I'm happy to be joined again this week with my friend, pastor Phil Taylor. Pastor Phil served as the senior pastor at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma for 38 years before he retired in May of 2023. We're chatting this week about depression and looking at some of the causes and ways that depression can be managed. Pastor Phil is well acquainted with the topic, having lived it for much of his adult life. There were times when there were some very dark seasons, times when it seemed to be well managed, and even times when depression seemed to have been just a bad memory. He's lived through every expression of depression, and I believe he has important things to say and things we can benefit from hearing him share with us. So, pastor Phil, thanks for joining us again on this follow-up episode.

Phil Taylor (01:09):

Absolutely.

Ric Shields (01:10):

This is really a good place for me to remind our listeners, and even to remind you and I that neither of us, pastor Phil, nor myself are medical or mental health professionals. We are only speaking about topics we've experienced personally. If you or a loved one are battling with depression or another mental health disorder, we encourage you to find a physician or a counselor who's trained to help with that issue.

(01:35):

Pastor Phil, we spoke last week about some of the symptoms of depression. They included persistent sadness, loss of interest or pleasure, fatigue and low energy, hopelessness and helplessness, difficulty concentrating and changes in sleep and appetite. This isn't an exhaustive list, but only one that lists some of the predominant symptoms of depression. And I'd like to take some time today to speak about some of the causes of depression. We've looked at some of these together. I wonder if you'd take a couple of minutes to share some of these with our listeners.

Phil Taylor (02:08):

The ones you mentioned there. You know, physical biological factors can certainly be a part of it. You know, as we age, some of us, you know, there, there are some limitations that come and that can bring about depression too. We can't do some of the things we used to do. We're not as agile or as fit or whatever. And that can bring about depression, change that comes with age or with jobs or all those things. Guilt can and regret can fuel depression in us. All the changes that come with life, death or divorce or interruption to, you know, to our schedule, burnout for those in, in helping and carrying things, bankruptcy, just fatigue and burnout, all those things. Unrealistic, I know in, in ministry unrealistic and unmet expectations and goals can, can fuel burnout and, and depression for people.

Ric Shields (03:05):

That, especially those unmet goals. Yeah, absolutely. Because many pastors have goals and they may be unrealistic, but then when they're unmet Yeah, that's really tough.

Phil Taylor (03:16):

And, and specifically, maybe sometime we could do, we could do a, a podcast just for just kind of addressing the needs of pastors, but that's part of the thing. You know, you, you, boy, you feel like you pour your life into a group of people. And if you're a pastor or, or an associate pastor and, you’re given it all you've got and there's no growth or there's no response or, you know, it's like Noah preaching for however many years while he is building the ark and not a soul gets saved. You know, boy, you went there feeling like you've got this call to, to do ministry, and people are unresponsive, and they won't get behind the vision.

(03:54):

All those things can kind of lend itself, you know, to depression and to the feeling of just worthlessness. Sure. And, and that kind of fuels part of that, I think. So

Ric Shields (04:09):

Do any of those that you've mentioned seem to have been triggers for you and your journey with depression?

Phil Taylor (04:14):

You know, I think there were times I probably felt like I took on more responsibility than I should have. I tend to, I could tell as I got more depressed, my tendency was to again, kind of pull things in. It's like, well, good, then I won't ask anybody else to help because I'll just do this as a pastor, I could sing, I could play, I could preach. So, then I wouldn't have anybody to blame for the mistakes but me, you know?

(04:41):

So, if you remember, you know, Moses, in the Old Testament got burned out and depressed, and his father-in-Law came to him and said, hey, what are you doing? You're taking on every minute detail of the lives of people, and this is going to burn you out. Here's what you need to do. You need to appoint elders. You need to have people that are going to deal with these other problems so you can focus on what's important. And so, you know, being able to delegate responsibility and be able to, to take a day off and some self-care, all those kinds of things would be helpful.

(05:15):

One thing we haven't mentioned too, but another kind of thing that I had to kind of be aware of, something that people talk about, SAD, seasonal effective disorder. Right? A lot of times people, when the days get shorter, it's darker during wintertime. A lot of time people deal with that. For some weird reason, August was a lot of times a bad month, really. And by the end of the summer, I don't know what it was, but I knew it was coming. So, I anticipated it. After a couple of years of experiencing kind of that downtime, I thought, all right, I need to gear up. I either need to plan a vacation during that time, or I need to do something different to make sure I kind of head that off. So, there can be a lot of things that kind of trigger depression. I'm probably not really addressing your question very well, but.

Ric Shields (06:02):

No, I think you are, and I'm looking, in fact, while you're talking, I'm trying to look up the, the story of Moses and his father-in-law, Jethro, when Jethro came to him and, and said, "What, what are you doing? "

Phil Taylor (06:16):

Yeah. Moses stood at the doorway, you know, dealing with people's complaints and problems all day long until, you know, he couldn't, he couldn't lead. Yeah. Because he was overwhelmed by, by all these other things. So,

Ric Shields (06:28):

Yeah. And Moses' father-in-law said to him, "What you're doing is not good. You and these people who come to you will only wear yourselves out." He wasn't just going to burn himself out. He was going to burn out the people too in the process. Yeah. The reality was this was a thing that Moses got a chance to learn, as you said earlier, it wasn't just about him. And we tend to try to make these things only about ourselves. It wasn't just about him, though. It really was about everybody and the health of the whole, let's call it organization. We could call it that as well. Exactly. So, yeah, that's a, that's an important thing to note. I'm glad you brought that up.

(07:07):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields, and I'm joined on this episode with Reverend Phil Taylor, the pastor emeritus at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

(07:18):

Pastor Phil served that church for nine years as a youth pastor and associate pastor, followed by 38 years as a senior pastor. I’ve got to tell you, Pastor Phil, that's amazing. When you go to heaven, you're going to get a big gold medal around your neck for that <laugh>. Right now, it feels like a cement block, but eventually it may turn into a gold medal.

(07:40):

On this episode, we've spoken about some of the causes of depression. Again, let me say, neither Pastor Phil Taylor nor I are medical or mental health professionals. We are only speaking about topics we've experienced personally. So, if you or a loved one are battling with depression or another mental health disorder, we encourage you to find a physician or a counselor who's trained to help with that issue.

(08:02):

I'd like to change gears here, Pastor Phil, and talk about managing depression. In your experience, what seems to have helped and what seems not to have helped.

Phil Taylor (08:13):

Obviously, the, we mentioned last time that, well just, you know, try to pull yourself up by your own bootstrap kind of thing. That, that never really helped. I don't know that positive thinking or positive confession or whatever, there's a place for that, but, but sometimes it goes deeper than that. It's not just, well, let's try to have a happy thought. I know...

Ric Shields (08:36):

When you can't manufacture a happy thought, how can you have a happy thought?

Phil Taylor (08:41):

Yeah, yeah. When you're so far down, under this, you're buried under this, that, you know, you can't, you can't see your way out. And, and again, that's why okay, then, then we're going to have to have some help. One of the things, just a kind of a real, a couple of simple things. One, if you in 1st Kings 19, 18 and 19, it's the story of Elijah. And he has this confrontation, you know, with the prophets of Baal and calls down fire from heaven. He has this great victory, and, and they kill these wicked prophets. Ahab and Jezebel then are keen on killing him. Jezebel says, I'll have his head for the days out, and Elijah runs for his life.

(09:22):

So, he has gone from a ministry high. And this is, this is fairly typical too, in depression. You can, you can kind of expect it. You have, as a pastor, an awesome day on Sunday and Monday you just feel like, well, I need to just resign, you know? And, and so there's these hills and valleys, ups and downs. And Elijah then is running for his life. And what happens if you read it, read in, in chapter 19, one Kings 19, the first thing that happens is he goes somewhere, sits down and falls asleep under a tree. So, he's exhausted, and the first thing he needed was to get him to rest. And then the angel woke him up and said, get up and eat something, and provided food for him. And then he rested again. And then another time the angel feeds him and then says, strengthened by this, he travels for 40 days. And then finally he went into a cave and spent the night, and then the word of the Lord came to him.

(10:18):

So, one of the things I would say to people is then let's, let's take a look at your rest and your diet, and then how you're going to put yourself in a place where you can hear the word of the Lord. And for me, that was something important. I had to find a way to kind of stop, to get some discipline back in my life, perhaps, you know, to adjust my sleep schedule, that kind of thing. And then to begin once again, to kind of, alright, Lord, I want to hear from you and, and I want to see if I can hear something. Part of depression can come because we're not hearing from God, but the truth is he's spoken whether we're hearing it or not. So, I need to put myself in a place where I can hear it. That means I need to read the word of God.

(11:06):

And I mentioned last time, grabbing hold of the Psalms and begin to, begin to hold onto those things. Begin to redirect my, your thinking. Philippians 4:8, you know, says, whatsoever things are good and, and wholesome and all those things. So, begin to refocus your thinking, is another piece to that to redirect your thoughts about, about life. Praise became an important part of kind of getting over this, or getting through this for me, so that I began to praise the Lord, believing that, I tell people, you can praise your way out of depression. Sometimes I woke up every day and would say, Lord, I thank you that today I'm one day closer to the end of this dark tunnel than I was yesterday, and that you're going to lead me and direct my steps today. And so, I surrender this day to you.

(11:59):

I would literally turn my hands over, so my palms facing down, and I'd say, Lord, I empty my hands today of everything that I bring. I empty the fear and depression and discouragement and, and I, I have nothing. And then I would turn my hands palm upward, and I'd say, now, Lord, put in my hands whatever I need today to be able to serve you and to do all that you've called me to do, to help other people and to be effective for you. You are the equipper. And so, equip me and help me to carry out what you want me to do. Just those kinds of things for me, were ways that helped me kind of, you know, climb through this.

Ric Shields (12:42):

Yeah. That's powerful. That's good.

Phil Taylor (12:44):

Yeah, they were, they were helpful.

Ric Shields (12:45):

Pastor Phil, you said something earlier too that I wanted to respond to and that is, we have to, you know, pastors especially, we have to hear from God every week.

Phil Taylor (12:55):

Yeah.

Ric Shields (12:56):

And it just seems to me like that would be something that would cause a person to go next to crazy.

Phil Taylor (13:06):

<laugh>.

Ric Shields (13:08):

How do you do that?

Phil Taylor (13:10):

You know, it's, yeah, good question. Particularly when you're already crazy. Part of that...

Ric Shields (13:14):

Well, particularly yeah. When you're in the middle of depression.

Phil Taylor (13:17):

Yeah, yeah. I don’t know how that was, that continual seeking the Lord for my own sanity, you know, and health in that sense. And it was in that then that reading the scripture like, alright, Lord, I'm going to read until something ministers to me, something speaks to me. And, and then out of that, I think once again, what I'd said before, quoting Paul about, in our weakness, that's when he manifests his strength. And I think ministering from a place of brokenness. You know, was Henri Nouwen that wrote a book about the wounded healer. I think there, there is something to that. I think I don't mean to make this as just a, you know, overgeneralizing, but there's something to be said for wounded healers, for shepherds that, you know, that kind of walk with a limp, that we've experienced our brokenness.

(14:11):

And so, it makes us, you know, more empathetic perhaps, or more sympathetic with others. I remember years ago hearing, I think it was Keith Miller or Bruce Larsson, one of the other, both those guys were authors back in the 70's and 60's, but talking about as pastors, we stand behind the pulpit and say, "Thus sayeth the Lord." And then as, as followers of Jesus though, then we walk down off the platform and sat down with the congregation and say, now how are we going to live that out? And I think that's part of what, in depression or whatever else I can proclaim to you. This is what the Lord says. This is what the word of God says. But then that depression causes me then to stand alongside people and say, but I got to tell you, that's tough. And I'm not sure how we're going to do this, but we'll do it one day at a time, one prayer at a time, and one decision at a time,

Ric Shields (15:07):

And again, as a member of your congregation, since the, I think around 1990 or 1991 when we started to attend there. So, 30 years, 30, 32, 33 years. I would say that perhaps one of the things that endeared you the most or congregation is the fact that you didn't preach stuff you hadn't lived. You were often right in the middle of the very things that you were preaching to us about, you preached your life to us, your struggles and your joys and your victories. You preached your life. And I think that's the thing that endeared you to everybody. We didn't like watching you be depressed, but you were willing to talk about it. And we loved watching you when you weren't depressed. It's true to say that the thing that endeared you so much to people was that you really preached the very things you were learning and the things you were living. There was no theory involved in it. It was all practical.

Phil Taylor (16:08):

 Well, yeah, I thank I thank you for that. And, and yeah, I tried to be, I felt like, you know, the, the way of ministry for me was to be transparent and to be vulnerable. It was not like, you know, I appreciated that Paul said, you know, follow me even as I follow Christ. And I, I'm still willing to say that to people just as long as they understand that part of my way of following him may, may be in brokenness itself.

(16:35):

You know, I always remember, there’s a book called “The Tracks of a Fellow Struggler,” I think it's called, by John Claypool. And I remember hearing him speak once, and he had a daughter who was ill with leukemia, I think it was. And he talked about the experience of sitting in the hospital during the night with her, and, you know, with her crying and in pain. And Daddy, why pray for me and why doesn't God heal me? And then he would leave the hospital to go to his congregation the next morning to preach.

(17:08):

And I remember him talking about the passage from the prophet Isaiah where he says, you know, we're to run as the, what is it, mount up with wings as eagles will run right. And not walk and not faint. And he said, I'll just be honest with you. There are times when soaring with wings like an eagle or running and not fainting or whatever is just not appropriate, because we're just, we're crushed and, and, and, stricken down, you know? And, and so, but he said, but the key is we're still moving forward. It may, we may not be running or soaring, but the appropriate response in faith is that we're still moving.

(17:49):

That always struck me. It's like, you know, yeah, not everybody out there is soaring like an eagle today. some of us are just doing really good to get our shoes and socks on and be able to be there, but we have hope and that keeps us going. And I, that honesty was valued and appreciated by people. And, and I'm thankful for that.

(18:10):

Not everybody, you know, would value that. It's like, well, I want to hear a preacher that's, you know, successful and on top of things. And there's plenty of those guys out there. But yeah, I was, I was the one who kind of said, yeah, we're probably all going to struggle. That's, that's part of what living is. And, but hallelujah. Yeah, we're going to keep, we're going to keep rejoicing and, and keep trusting the Lord. And

Ric Shields (18:35):

That's the truth. I appreciate you...

Phil Taylor (18:36):

And one more thing. Ric, that just, I said it before that thing about telling yourself the truth and, and talking to yourself as I get older, I do that quite a bit, talking to myself in Walmart for some reason. But, to stop and tell yourself the truth about things. Sometimes we just, depression becomes a default position for us that whatever happens, like I mentioned about that A, B, C thing. The activating event, and our automatic response is, "Oh, I have no coping mechanism," and we just fall down into this, abyss into this sloth of depression or whatever. And for us to stop and think for a moment about what's really going on and what's, what's a god perspective on this? What's heaven see, rather than just what I'm seeing now.

(19:30):

And for us to change our perspective a little bit. I just think that's a real, really important and vital piece to finding the peace of the Lord. You know, the scripture says he'll keep us in perfect peace, whose mind is stayed upon him, and there's a way that we can just, I'm going to, I'm going to continue to focus on the Lord. I'm going to continue to, to have heaven's perspective on things so that, well, what if this happens? Yeah. But heaven already has a lock on this, you know? Right. And God's in control of this. And we’re going to see the salvation of the Lord. He's going to work this out. And so, I think to, to tell ourselves the truth and to hold onto that perspective, I think is another just vital piece to this for me,

Ric Shields (20:14):

As if God doesn't know what the truth is. Yeah. We, we tell ourselves these things like, okay, this is what I'm really going to believe. God knows, come on <laugh>. He really does.

(20:26):

I appreciate you sharing your time and your story with us Pastor Phil and I really, I have no doubt that there're going to be others who benefit from hearing about your experience and the insight that you share.

(20:38):

I'd like for us to complete our time together with prayer for those who are caught in the grip of depression or some other mood disorder. I'm thankful to know this. Jesus is the healer of all our diseases. He doesn't require us to have some physical manifestation of an illness for him to show his grace and mercy and healing. So, would you please pray for those who are listening, and especially for those in need of him to touch their mind, their will, and their emotions?

Phil Taylor (21:08):

Amen. I'd be pleased to do that.

(21:11):

Father, I thank you today that, that the scripture says that you've given us a sound mind. And I stand upon that promise today, Lord, that you have healing for us. For those of us Lord, who have battled with depression, that we can stand to today to declare the Lord is my light and my salvation. And so, I won't be afraid, and I won't be overwhelmed by these things. The psalmist said, "I sought the Lord and he heard me and delivered me from all my fear." You're the God who lifts up the countenance of those whose countenance is downcast or depressed. And so, I believe you today to bring peace to those who are discouraged, or if there is physical, yes Lord, reasons for mental health issues, for depression, or schizophrenia, or bipolar disorder, or whatever it might be.

(22:02):

I pray for healing, that you would manifest your grace in that person's life, to heal and to restore a soundness of mind for those depressed and discouraged today. I pray You would restore in their heart and in their spirit a sense of wellness and wholeness. That there is light that breaks in, even in the darkness. Because the truth, Lord, the scripture says that even in the dark, you are the light. That, that there's a way that you're going to bring us into a place of light even in the darkness. And Lord, even in our moments of despair or when everything seems to be in the midst of a storm, we believe that you are with us. You'll either calm the storm or you'll calm us and bring us through. But we have no cause for fear.

(22:49):

And so, we're going to trust you today, Lord, that will tell ourselves the truth, that you are a God who loves us, a God who cares about us, a God who wants us well and whole. And you're moving us in that direction. You're moving us towards wholeness and restoration. May we walk in your peace and in your favor, may the grace of the Lord be upon us, and you'll lift up your countenance upon us, and you'll give us peace. And we receive that in faith today. Let every heart be encouraged. will not give up today where there's a better day coming and we're going to trust in you. In Jesus' name, amen. Amen.

Ric Shields (23:29):

Thanks again for listening. I hope you found this podcast to be helpful. Please feel free to share it with others you think may benefit from it. Would you like someone to pray for you? I'll pray for you. And if you'd like, I'll share your note with others who will pray and believe for God work on your behalf. Drop me a note at info@DoorWays dot cc.

(23:50):

Until next time, may you sense God's presence, the love of Jesus, and the grace of the Holy Spirit in your heart, your home, and in your spheres of relationship in the days ahead. God bless you.