Challenges in Hispanic Ministry

In this episode of the DoorWays Ministry Network podcast, host Ric Shields interviews Michael Lobmeyer, a pastor who discusses the challenges of ministering to a diverse Hispanic congregation, including language barriers and cultural differences. He also talks about the financial struggles of his church, as many of his congregants are immigrants working in low-paying jobs. Despite these challenges, Lobmeyer emphasizes the importance of love, understanding, and meeting the needs of his congregants. He encourages listeners to pray for all immigrants and to remember that everyone is headed one day to the same heavenly destination

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Challenges in Hispanic Ministry

Guest: Pastor Michael Lobmeyer

Season 3, Episode 6

Announcer (00:00):

Welcome to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast.

Ric Shields (00:13):

Thank you for joining us on this podcast. I'm Ric Shields, your host and the director of the DoorWays® Ministry Network.

(00:19):

On this episode, I'm talking with my friend Michael Lobmeyer. I've known Michael for over 20 years. Previous to meeting him, Michael had studied Spanish at a language school in Costa Rica and served as a missionary in Venezuela for 12 years. Since I've known him, he has served as a pastor, public school teacher, hospice chaplain, as a chaplain at an immigration control and enforcement detention center. Michael is willing to provide ministry in whatever context is available to him and Michael, I'm glad you're able to join me today.

Michael Lobmeyer (00:50):

Well, I'm just glad you invited me. I appreciate it. You're one of my favorite friends.

Ric Shields (00:56):

Well, did I miss any of the positions you've filled in my introduction there? Is there anything else I should add?

Michael Lobmeyer (01:00):

You could add that I taught Spanish from Kindergarten through college level. I was a chaplain for 450 Puerto Ricans for a year and a half.

Ric Shields (01:12):

And I should mention you're a husband and father as well, those are pretty big jobs.

Michael Lobmeyer (01:16):

Absolutely. That's, that's right.

Ric Shields (01:18):

I looked through my files yesterday and found that Iglesia Oeste (or West Church in English) was incorporated in 2005. I know that you actually started meeting with a group of Hispanic folks prior to that, but it's been 19 years ago since the church was legally organized. So, what prompted you to begin a Hispanic church?

Michael Lobmeyer (01:38):

We had come off the mission field and we just decided we didn't want to do anything <laugh> for a while, but then we started to go to Carbondale Assembly of God and Pastor Phil asked us to do a Spanish Bible study. It grew into a church, but it's more than that. Pastor Phil first said, would you do a Spanish Bible study? We'll give you the space. We'll give you the room and tell us what else you need. I didn't, had no idea what exactly he meant other than it seemed like he wanted to start a ministry with Hispanics. And when we started, we didn't have very many people.

Ric Shields (02:14):

How many did you start with?

Michael Lobmeyer (02:16):

We started out with three people. One of the people was recently divorced, and she ended up moving back to New York. And then we had one, an older couple. And this gentleman thought that <laugh>, if you used notes to preach, then you weren't listening to the Holy Spirit.

Ric Shields (02:37):

Yeah, that's right. There was no anointing.

Michael Lobmeyer (02:39):

Yes. Yeah. It was really weird. And then we had 22 Costa Ricans for a while that were, that had temporary visas to work, and we had to go pick them up. So, we picked them up in a van and brought them to church. We were so excited because the church was growing and then they all left.

Ric Shields (03:00):

There you go, <laugh>.

Michael Lobmeyer (03:02):

They had a temporary job, and they all went to New Jersey.

Ric Shields (03:05):

That was temporary. They had a temporary job and a temporary place to stay too, didn't they?

Michael Lobmeyer (03:11):

Yes.

Ric Shields (03:12):

So that sounds like that may answer one of my questions. What are some of the early challenges you faced as you began your ministry to Hispanics in Tulsa?

Michael Lobmeyer (03:22):

Well, that was one of them is just the immigration is because people were coming and they're very transient. We had those, the 22 Costa Ricans, but we also had started the church with a couple couples that were not married but had children and one man who was Christian but had problems with alcoholism. So that was kind of our – when we started the church, that's who we had. We had a few couples that were normal, you know, married couples, but most of them were not. They were not married.

Ric Shields (04:01):

So, you had kind of a leadership challenge early on, didn't you?

Michael Lobmeyer (04:05):

Absolutely. We really didn't have any, first of all, we could put in leadership because to be a leader in the church, you want people that are married, and you also want people that have a little bit of Christian background. These guys had Christian background but were not living a Christian life. And so, that was a real challenge. And there were a lot of things that happened during that first year. A couple times I had driven six hours to Garden City, KS and I got an emergency call and had to drive back as fast as I could to bail people out of jail and all kinds of things like that. Lots of fun.

Ric Shields (04:41):

Well, <laugh> lots of fun. I mentioned earlier that you'd previously served as a missionary in Venezuela. Your wife Ruth is from Costa Rica. You met her I think during language school, you told me. But I assume the majority of Hispanics we counter in the Tulsa area and that attend Iglesia Oeste are from Mexico, is that correct?

Michael Lobmeyer (05:02):

That was correct. At the beginning we had mostly Mexican and Guatemalans, but we have people from Puerto Rico, we have people from Honduras, we have people from El Salvador. We have people from all over. Right now. there's a big ministry opportunity with Venezuelans.

Ric Shields (05:24):

What do you think in Tulsa? What's the percentage of Hispanics that live in Tulsa? Or maybe just round numbers? How many Hispanics live in the Tulsa area?

Michael Lobmeyer (05:32):

There's about 50,000.

Ric Shields (05:36):

That's a lot.

Michael Lobmeyer (05:37):

Yeah. There's about 50,000 Hispanics living in Tulsa County.

Ric Shields (05:43):

So Hispanic communities are pretty diverse with people from various countries. And you've already mentioned them, various cultures, various traditions. So, you're actually involved in cross-cultural ministry, even just ministering in the Hispanic population.

Michael Lobmeyer (06:01):

It, we really are. There was one guy, he said he decided he couldn't go to our church because the majority of our people were not high enough class for him. He didn't think they had the educational level that he had acquired so he just didn't feel comfortable with that group of people. And he was a great guy. Sadly, it just didn't work out.

Ric Shields (06:24):

What country was he from?

Michael Lobmeyer (06:26):

Ecuador.

Ric Shields (06:27):

So that's one of one of the diversities that you face. What are some of the others?

Michael Lobmeyer (06:32):

There's a lot of like language things because there are some words that are fine in some countries that are not fine in others. There are some words that you use among Venezuelans that it's considered like curse words.

Ric Shields (06:48):

Yeah. Vulgar in another language, in another culture.

Michael Lobmeyer (06:50):

I mean, it's just crazy because everyone has different words that that mean different things. You can say papaya in one country and that's fine, but if you say papaya in another country, that's a really bad thing. You can say the word for a large spoon in one country, and that's fine. But in other countries it's a bad thing. You can say the word for spirit, or actually the word for dove, in some countries is a bad word. So, it's pretty crazy. It's not like you're walking on eggshells, but you have to really be aware of who your audience is when you speak.

Ric Shields (07:26):

How do you figure these things out ahead of time?

Michael Lobmeyer (07:28):

You don't. You make mistakes. <Laugh> You ask for forgiveness and hope people forgive you. I'm learning more every day. Every day I learn something different about different people and the different way people think. It's just different. Every culture is different. Every country is different. And there's probably 15 or 20 or maybe even 40 places in Mexico. and every one of those places is different. And every one of them has a different way of thinking. That's just in Mexico.

Ric Shields (07:58):

So, we may have an overall umbrella of Hispanic ministry, but the truth is you have to be careful and have very specific opportunities for specific cultures and groups, don't you?

Michael Lobmeyer (08:12):

Absolutely. I sometimes think, you know, it would be good just to have just all Puerto Ricans, or <laugh> just a group of all Venezuelans, because it's so much easier. It's so much easier when you have a homogeneous group. Is that the right word?

Ric Shields (08:27):

I think that's right. Instead of heterogeneous. I think you're right.

Michael Lobmeyer (08:30):

Yeah. It’s a lot easier. It was a lot easier when we were on the mission field. It was a lot easier because we knew who exactly we were administering to. We were ministering to a tribal group. They all spoke the same language. They all had the same culture and they thought alike.

Ric Shields (08:47):

Yeah. Group think.

Michael Lobmeyer (08:48):

Yeah, it was a lot easier than Hispanic ministry. Everybody thinks differently. Not everybody thinks the same. And you can have 50 different areas in Mexico, and they all think differently. And that's just Mexico. And that's not even to mention the other countries.

Ric Shields (09:05):

Let me take a moment, Michael, to remind our listeners that we appreciate your feedback. Let us know if we're providing the kind of content that is helpful to you by dropping me an email at info@DoorWays dot cc. And if you have an idea for a guest or for a topic, let me know. We will work in incorporating that into our podcast schedule.

(09:25):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields and I'm joined on this episode with Michael Lobmeyer, the pastor of Iglesia Oeste, or in English, that means West Church because their church is in West Tulsa.

(09:37):

This may seem like a shameless plug, but I'd like to mention that our listeners can also receive a free copy of my recent book, “Generous Measures, One-Minute Lessons with a Lifetime of Value.” It's available in both English and Spanish on our website. If you'd like a copy, you can download it at www dot DoorWays dot cc slash generous. There's no registration. You don't have to sign in or sign up. To me, free means free. It's totally free. We do get a chance to see how many books we've had downloaded, and at this point it's almost 2,600 copies of those books we've had downloaded off the website. So please help yourself.

(10:15):

The book contains 27 stories. Each story is exactly 200 words about generosity or stewardship. I hope you'll enjoy a copy and feel free to pass it along to others that you think may enjoy it, too.

(10:27):

So, back to my guest, Michael Lobmeyer. Many people in Hispanic churches may be immigrants facing legal, social, and economic challenges. First, how do you address the issue of illegal immigration or undocumented immigrants? And second, what about the social and economic challenges they face? How do you address those?

Michael Lobmeyer (10:47):

Number one, I don't check people's card at the door. If somebody comes to our church, I don't ask them what their immigration status is. I don't ask whether they're legal or ill illegal. I just minister to them. And we try to minister to them as best we can. If they need, if they're looking for a job, we try to put them in the right place where they can find a job. If there are people in our church that are doing the same thing they're doing, we try to let people network and get together in that way. A lot of times we have loaned money out of our own pockets to people. We have used our car to give people rides. We've usually help people out when they're coming with clothing, with utensils for cooking, whatever they need. 

Ric Shields (11:33):

You've had people stay in your house.

Michael Lobmeyer (11:35):

We've had people stay at our house. Correct. We’ve had, since we started the ministry, we’ve had people stay in our house all, not constantly, but we've probably had, oh, about 22 people stay in our house at one time or another.

Ric Shields (11:50):

Sure. It's not uncommon.

Michael Lobmeyer (11:51):

It is not Uncommon.

Ric Shields (11:52):

It's not a regular occurrence, but it's not uncommon.

Michael Lobmeyer (11:54):

It's not uncommon at all. The thing is, if you see a need and you can meet it, you should meet it. And that just the way we look at things. If we can meet a need, then we meet the need. If there's something we, that we think would not be good for our family, then we have to look at that as well. There's been times when I've had to say, “I'm sorry, I would love to for you to stay with us, but at this time, I don't think that's a good idea.”

Ric Shields (12:21):

Well, that's got to be hard.

Michael Lobmeyer (12:22):

It was, there was...

Ric Shields (12:24):

Because they have to have somewhere to go.

Michael Lobmeyer (12:26):

Yeah. I had a Venezuelan who was coming out of the I.C.E detention facility, and he wanted to be part of our church. He was very talented. He had a lot of things going for him. And I really wanted him part of our church. He was going to bring his wife up from Miami. And we were all excited about it, and I was all excited about it and talked it over with my wife and talked it over with my daughter, and they decided that that wouldn't be a good idea. I was going to let him stay with us for a while. And it – you have to think outside the box, but you also have to listen to your wife.

Ric Shields (13:00):

Absolutely. And your daughter.

Michael Lobmeyer (13:01):

And your daughter. You don't know everything. So <laugh> sometimes we think we know everything.

Ric Shields (13:06):

What? Michael, stop!

Michael Lobmeyer (13:09):

Sometimes we think we know everything, but we don't. And really, we always have to.

Ric Shields (13:13):

You, too?

Michael Lobmeyer (13:14):

We have to defer a lot.

Ric Shields (13:16):

Oh, I thought that was just me. That's the both of us.

Michael Lobmeyer (13:18):

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Oh, my goodness.

Ric Shields (13:21):

It seems there, it seems like there'd be an issue of having the resources you need to provide that wide range of ministries necessary for those who attend your church or just coming into the area.

(13:32):

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I assume that most people immigrating don't begin working in the USA with high paying jobs. And it seems that, and especially those that are undocumented, it seems that many probably work in the service industry. So, the cost of living has increased significantly in the past few years. So how are you funded? Do your church members seem willing to give generously or do they give generously?

Michael Lobmeyer (13:58):

As of now, no. And really the 20 plus years of ministry, I have not found very many that even give on a regular basis. And we brought people in to talk to them about the same thing. I've talked to them about the same thing.

Ric Shields (14:15):

I came and preached.

Michael Lobmeyer (14:17):

Yeah. Yes, you did. You came and preached. And there's a lot of things. You know, people, they listen, and they take notes. And a lot of times, I don't know what they do with the notes. And they just, a lot of times they just ignore them. A lot of people try to convince people that, for example, that tithing is Old Testament, or that you just need to give whatever you can give and you just need to give something. You have conflicting arguments in the church. We say one thing and they hear from their friends something else. Or some other church member, something else. And so, it has, for us, it hasn't happened that way. A lot of times, a lot of the funds have had to come out of our own pockets.

Ric Shields (15:03):

And I also know that – not just Hispanics, but other immigrants as well – a lot of money goes back home to help the family back in whatever country they came from.

Michael Lobmeyer (15:15):

That's correct. There's a lot of people that regularly send money home. Even my wife and I have sent money to her family in Costa Rica. Her father is 96 years old or see 98 years old. I don't know. But we've sent money to him

Ric Shields (15:30):

Either way, 96, 98. That's, that's old enough, isn't it?

Michael Lobmeyer (15:33):

He's pretty old. And we've sent money to him a lot of times. But one of my wife's brothers had problems with his kidneys and we've sent money to him. We've also sent money to a lot of our friends from Venezuela. One of our friends from Venezuela, we recently sent money because they are having cancer surgery and cancer treatment and everything else. And they don't have family here in the United States to send them money. And they're in Peru and they're needing cancer treatment. We've sent money, some more.

(16:06):

A person that used to live with us when we were living in Venezuela. He considers us his parents when he was in when he was studying in in college. His father lived in another city, and he needed a place to stay. And we gave him a room in our home to stay in so he could study.

Ric Shields (16:27):

Well, there can be significant generational differences in Hispanic communities that lead to varying levels of cultural adaptation and preferences for traditional or contemporary worship styles. You find that true at Iglesia Oeste?

Michael Lobmeyer (16:42):

There's a lot of things. For example, the youth prefer English over Spanish, the youth and some of the children as well. So, when we do, when we do Sunday school, a lot of times we'll do English and Spanish. When I do youth ministry, a lot of times we'll actually bring in the Burmese as well when we're doing youth ministry. And we do the whole service in English.

Ric Shields (17:08):

The Burmese share the facility with you. They have a separate service, but currently it's another church that meets in the same location.

Michael Lobmeyer (17:17):

They are brothers and sisters in Christ and he, the pastor considers us like his parents.

Ric Shields (17:23):

Yeah, us too.

Michael Lobmeyer (17:25):

Yeah. He treats older people in the ministry family members. And it's just...

Ric Shields (17:33):

A great deal of honor and respect.

Michael Lobmeyer (17:34):

Absolutely. It's something that sometimes I think it would be fun just to change into be Burmese for a while.

Ric Shields (17:42):

<Laugh>. Well, they make some great food, I've got to tell you. Not like the Hispanics don't, but the Burmese, they have some great food.

(17:48):

And Michael, I've heard this, too, and I think we've talked about this. I know that in people who immigrate to the US or whatever country, that the first generation of immigrants typically speak the language of the country of their origin. The second generation speaks both that language of their parents, and for example, in the US they speak English and they're bilingual. The third generation generally speaks only English predominantly and very little, if any of the language, then what would be their grandparents. Is that accurate?

Michael Lobmeyer (18:28):

That is accurate. I teach Spanish classes and I have Hispanics that I teach, and some of them say, “Don't speak to me in Spanish, speak to me in English.” And I'm saying, “Well, I'm teaching Spanish class.”

Ric Shields (18:40):

Yeah, that -- it's a little difficult, isn't it?

Michael Lobmeyer (18:44):

Different. So, there's, this standoffishness. The thing is the people that are coming directly from Latin America or wherever, they speak the language. They read the language, and they write the language. But the second generation, all they do is speak the language. And the third generation barely speak the language even.

Ric Shields (19:05):

I was in Chicago one time and met a, I was going to a church that was a Hispanic Church. It was bilingual. And so, this guy picks me up at the airport, me and a friend that that went. And we were talking with him, and I thought, “Oh, this would be cool. I'll try my Spanish out.” And him talking to him and he turned to me and said, “Don't talk to me in Spanish. That's actually offensive.” And I'm going, really? But you're going to a Hispanic, you're going to a bilingual church. But he was third generation.

Michael Lobmeyer (19:33):

And that's the rub because you get people that are third generation, and they would rather have English than Spanish. And that's what we're running into with, with the youth. That being said, we have some youth that recently came. They're from Guatemala. They recently came in and they, Spanish is their first language. They just came here a year ago. And they're here with their papers and they want to hear Spanish. So, it's kind of hard because sometimes you're so, what should we do?

(20:02):

So, a lot of times you have to do bilingual if you're going to be ministering to youth because you've got one group of youth that would rather hear English and another group of youth that would rather hear Spanish. And some of them, they're someplace in the middle. So, you have to...

Ric Shields (20:15):

You’ve got to do both.

Michael Lobmeyer (20:17):

You have to do both. Absolutely.

Ric Shields (20:19):

So, what is currently your biggest ministry challenge, you think?

Michael Lobmeyer (20:22):

Just making a budget every month. That's probably my biggest ministry challenge because we don't know what's coming in.

Ric Shields (20:29):

Not making a new budget. Just making budget.

Michael Lobmeyer (20:32):

Just making budget. Getting there. Making budget month after month. It's just, it's tedious, hectic. It's hard. It's just hard.

Ric Shields (20:40):

Do you have the same people week after week or is it a different congregation each week?

Michael Lobmeyer (20:44):

There are people that show up once a month. There are people that show up every week, and there's people that show up once in a while. So yeah, it's a different congregation every week. It's not that everybody shows up all the time, they just don't. I think that that's the case probably in the American churches now as well. Unfortunately, a lot of times in not just Hispanic culture, but a lot of cultures, the Hispanic culture, they take the best of their culture and maybe sometimes the worst of their culture. And they take the best of Americans culture, but sometimes they take the worst of Americans culture, and they adapt. That is their own. And it just, it's a disaster.

Ric Shields (21:24):

The people who come every now and then, or occasionally, they tend to kind of save up their tithe and bring it when they show up. Is that how that works?

Michael Lobmeyer (21:33):

You, you would think, but no, that really doesn't happen. It

Ric Shields (21:36):

Doesn't work that way at all, does it?

Michael Lobmeyer (21:36):

It doesn't work that way. No. Not at all. A lot of times, if, for example, if we have a service canceled because of snow, you would think that the next week there would be double tithes or double offerings. And that's just not the case. We found that even during the COVID crisis, that if people weren't there in church, they weren't giving.

Ric Shields (21:55):

For the most part, do they operate on a cash basis or credit cards and checks? How, how does that work?

Michael Lobmeyer (22:02):

There's only one couple that writes checks. Everyone else is on a cash basis.

Ric Shields (22:09):

And so, when they have cash, they give it. And when they don't have cash, there's nothing to give.

Michael Lobmeyer (22:13):

That's correct.

Ric Shields (22:15):

Michael, since this episode is in English, I have to assume we don't have many Hispanic listeners. As we draw our time to a close, I wonder if you've got any special words of encouragement you'd like to share with our listeners as it relates to how to effectively and compassionately minister to Hispanics that they may meet?

Michael Lobmeyer (22:36):

Well, the main thing to realize is that we're here for a short amount of time. This isn't our home. And we're not trying to build a, we might try to build a ministry here, but really, we're trying to build the kingdom of God. And keeping that in mind, you just need to love people. Even if you don't speak their language, try to be kind to them, even if you don't understand where they're coming from.

(23:00):

A lot of times, if you're just understanding and you listen, that goes a long way. Just listening to people. If we would learn how to listen, we would not have as many problems in any of our relationships, in our marriage or anything else. And, and that's the same with Hispanics. You just need to listen.

(23:18):

And then if there's a need that you can meet, meet it. If there's something you can do, do it. And then keep praying for, not just the Hispanics, but all of the immigrants that are coming to the United States because we're all headed to heaven one day and we might as well get used to it. There's going to be a lot of different cultures where we're headed.

Ric Shields (23:39):

You mean there won't be all Americans only in heaven?

Michael Lobmeyer (23:41):

No.

Ric Shields (23:41):

Or is there maybe a USA section up there maybe?

Michael Lobmeyer (23:45):

Yeah. Well, I don't know. We have a joke in Spanish that I don't think it really works in English. It says, “What is the language of the angels? Well, the, the language of the angels is Spanish...”

Ric Shields (23:57):

Of course,

Michael Lobmeyer (23:59):

“...Because there are many Hispanics in Los Angeles.”

Ric Shields (24:03):

<Laugh>. Yeah. Okay. Michael, that's enough for today. Thank you. This has been fun. <Laugh>. All right, buddy. I love you.

Michael Lobmeyer (24:12):

You, too. Thank you.

Ric Shields (24:15):

Thanks again for listening. I hope you found this podcast to be helpful. Please feel free to share it with others you think may benefit from it.

(24:23):

Would you like someone to pray for you? I'll pray for you. And if you'd like, I'll share your note with others who will pray and believe for God to work on your behalf. Drop me a note at info@DoorWays dot cc.

(24:36):

Until next time, may you sense God's presence, the love of Jesus, and the grace of the Holy Spirit in your heart, your home, and in your spheres of relationship in the days ahead. God bless you.