They Always Come, and They Always Leave

In this episode of the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast, Ric Shields interviews Dr. Daniel Isgrigg, a Pentecostal historian and associate professor at Oral Roberts University. They discuss the unique challenges faced by pastors of average-sized churches, which typically have between 50 to 200 attendees. Isgrigg shares his experiences of managing expectations, resources, and infrastructure in a smaller church setting. He also discusses the importance of embracing the uniqueness of a church's setting and community, rather than trying to replicate larger churches. Isgrigg shares insights on how to handle worship services, special holidays like Easter, and the inevitable departure of church members. He concludes by emphasizing the importance of seeing the value in what small churches do and the need for pastors to involve more people in ministry.

Transcript

Title: They Always Come, and They Always Leave
Guest: Dr. Daniel Isgrigg
Season 3, Episode 11

Announcer (00:00):

Welcome to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast.

Ric Shields (00:13):

Thank you for joining us on this podcast. I'm Ric Shields, your host, and the director of the DoorWays® Ministry Network. Today I'm having a follow-up conversation with Dr. Daniel Isgrigg, an associate professor and Pentecostal historian at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Daniel has been an Assemblies of God minister for over 20 years. His research interests are early Pentecostalism, the Tulsa Race Massacre, and the well-known evangelist Oral Roberts. Thanks, Daniel, for joining us again on this episode.

Daniel Isgrigg (00:42):

Hey, glad to be back and to share some more about my experience as an average pastor of an average church.

Ric Shields (00:48):

Well, last week you shared insights with us about being that average pastor of an average church. You said an average church has around 50 to 200 people who attend, far smaller than some of the mega churches we hear so much about. You also indicated that over 80% of pastors in America serve in churches of less than 200 people.

(01:09):

So, just as a reminder, what are some of the unique challenges faced by pastors of average churches?

Daniel Isgrigg (01:16):

Every church context is different, and every community is different, but one of the things that I faced in this sort of a suburban community is the expectation of being able to provide everything a larger church has, but not having the resources or the, you know, infrastructure to be able to do that. You know, when people are coming to a church, a smaller church, they expect the things that the larger church has. Coming to grips with the fact that we can't do everything well. You know, we can't invest in the way that all churches. So, we had to decide kind of what are we going to do really well, and let's focus on that. Because, you know, we knew that if somebody came and had kids that it's not going to be a large children's church room with 40 kids in it. It's going to be a small room with six or eight or 10 kids in it.

(02:11):

And so, you have a different sort of paradigm. We also couldn't have a lot of the infrastructure for things like greeter ministries and home groups and things like that. When you have 55 people, you are a home group, right? You are already a small community, and so, it takes a while to build those sorts of things. And so, those were some of the practical things.

(02:37):

Now, as a leader though, there were a lot of challenges. For example, one day the ink ran out on our printer, and we had no money for it. I had to decide, do I pay for it out of my own pocket or do I, you know, not pay something else because I needed to print the bulletin? Do you know what I mean? So, these are all things that in larger churches, you may not have that sort of struggle, but it's those little things that really weighed on me, like, I don't understand. I can't even print the bulletin this week.

(03:09):

Those are very practical challenges, but I think the biggest challenge is to try to see what you do as valuable. So, I was always trying to come up with ways to replicate what larger churches had, but in a way that made sense for us as a smaller church.

(03:26):

So, for example, one sermon series are so popular, everybody does those. And at the time, everybody was like doing these big props on stage. And so, I didn't really have the ability to buy things or create things. So, one of the deacons and I would go to the dollar store and see what we could find to make interesting things on stage.

(03:50):

One Sunday I did a flannel graph because we had a bunch of flannel. And I was teaching on the Old Testament, and I wanted a visual, but I didn't have a big LED screen or anything like that. So, I said, well, hey, I'll just do a big flannel graph. And I can tell you that was extremely popular. The church loved it,

Ric Shields (04:11):

And I bet that thought was fun. Yeah. Kind of a throwback.

Daniel Isgrigg (04:13):

It was a throwback, it was low tech, but it was, it was what I had in my hands to use. And it had the same effect as far as visual effect. People remember that. So, you just have to be a little more creative. And some pastors are not, you know, that's not their gifting. But being a children's pastor before, it was part of mine. I was always throwing together things.

Ric Shields (04:36):

Well, let me dig into that just a little deeper. How does the average church handle the worship portion of their services? I know now they've got these LED screens that stretch all the way across the stage, and they're, you know, tens of thousands of dollars and they've got laser lights and they've got smoke machines and videos and cameras projecting the worship leaders on stage. And all the worship leaders have, you know, wireless earbuds and it's just so cool. But how does the average church have a way to compete with that?

Daniel Isgrigg (05:07):

Well, that's just it. They don't, and I experienced a lot of frustration trying to make that not be the case. You can either embrace the uniqueness of your setting or you can, you know, wish it were something else and spend all your time frustrated. And I just decided I was going to embrace the way it was. So, there were times I played the drums, or there were

Ric Shields (05:31):

I didn't even know you were a drummer.

Daniel Isgrigg (05:32):

Yeah, I just,

Ric Shields (05:33):

Maybe you're not.

Daniel Isgrigg (05:34):

I barely was, but it was enough for what we were trying to do. There were times we had more instruments, there were times we had little. And we just said we we're going to do the best that we can with what we have, and we figured out that if you have enough, that's enough. And so, we didn't have to have all of it. We had enough, and that enough got us through. And there were times we didn't have any, and that was bad. But most of the time we had enough. And if you ask the people who came on Sundays, they didn't worry about it nearly as much as I did.

Ric Shields (06:08):

Oh, that's interesting.

Daniel Isgrigg (06:09):

Yeah. I mean, they just, they loved the church because they loved the people and the setting and things like that. Not because what we put together on a Sunday morning wowed them, or, and at the end of the day, I would have people tell me, “I'm here on purpose. I want to be, you don't have to make the church be something else. I like it here. And I could go somewhere else.” Freeing yourself from that was really important for me to just say, we're not a problem to be solved.

Ric Shields (06:38):

Yeah. That's good.

Daniel Isgrigg (06:39):

We're a place to, we have our own unique place, and it's meaningful, it's challenging, but it's meaningful.

Ric Shields (06:46):

We're recording this podcast just a few weeks before Easter. You wrote some interesting things in your book, “The Average Pastor,” about how your church prepared for that special holiday. So, please tell us about that.

Daniel Isgrigg (07:02):

Where I pastored, there was a church across the street. There was a church about a half mile down to the north and a half mile to the south. And then there was a large church, of the same denomination, about a mile and a half away. So, one day I gathered some volunteers from the church to go put flyers on the doors of the local neighborhood by us. By the time we got to the door, there were already three flyers from three other churches. And I was knocking on the door and the people were very frustrated with me because now I was the fourth one who knocked on their door. And basically, one of them told me, "I've never heard of you before today, and now I have four of you on my doorstep."

(07:47):

That was really important for me to think, "Okay, here's what people think about Easter, is it's the time to make sure that you have the biggest and the best, and we recruit everybody and you have helicopters dropping eggs, and you know, you do all this sort of attractional thing." And I realized in that the people we were inviting see right through that.

(08:10):

The second thing that happened was we had some good growth coming towards Easter. So, we as a church, my leaders, we were all getting ready for Easter, which of course you're going to have your biggest Sunday. And so, we were flirting around 85. We were close to 90, and we thought, yes, this is going to be the Sunday we hit over a hundred. Because that's what happens to every church, right on Easter is it's, you get your record crowd. Well, we had 46 on Easter.

Ric Shields (08:42):

Oh, you went the other direction.

Daniel Isgrigg (08:44):

Yes. 40.

Ric Shields (08:46):

Where'd they all go?

Daniel Isgrigg (08:47):

Well, that's the thing. See, because everybody does the big attractional thing, for small churches, they drop in attendance because of family visits, other family, and other things. So, whereas for the large church, you get bump in attendance, usually around Easter in small churches, you usually have a drop.

(09:09):

That was the thing I started to learn. So, I started telling my church, we're not going to be special on Easter because Easter is a special day, but we're going to be ourselves. We're going to be what we always are so that when somebody comes, they see an accurate representation of who we are. You know, it's with that principle that a lot of people talk about what you attract people with, you have to keep doing in order to keep them.

Ric Shields (09:35):

Oh, yeah, sure.

Daniel Isgrigg (09:36):

We realized that a small church can't do that. We can't keep up with the attractional thing, and plus it doesn't work for us. Anyway, so I started telling people, let's not make our Easter special. Let's make our Easter us. This looks like us and feels like us instead of feeling like something else. And so, and you

Ric Shields (09:55):

Didn't have to pour resources into something where the return on your investment was negative.

Daniel Isgrigg (10:02):

Absolutely. We went through a lot of trouble and a lot of expense to build up for something that we ended up having way less people for anyway.

Ric Shields (10:12):

Now, I want to point out to you that if you do the Living Lord's supper, you really only need 13 men.

Daniel Isgrigg (10:17):

That's true.

Ric Shields (10:19):

But thank you for not doing that. I've seen that so many times and I never figured out why people do that.

Daniel Isgrigg (10:24):

By contrast, a small church can do things that large churches can't. So, for example with 75 people, we could transform our sanctuary. So, when it was a fifth Sunday, we would have a very special family worship Sunday that was themed. And we did it just for the kids. So, and the parents, you know, the adults loved it.

(10:46):

Like, one time we did a Seder meal where we set up tables in the sanctuary and we had a great time having food instead of doing a service. And another time we did a team theme because it was Super Bowl Sunday. And I actually brought in the bleachers from our softball field and brought them inside. And we set up a field we could do that because we had flexibility and there was less there. We could accommodate, you know, that sort of thing. And so, we would do more interesting things that other times felt more like us as well. And those are the things that people remember. They remember those services. And even my kids that were very young at the time, they remember back to those times. And so, we were able to do some really fun stuff too.

Ric Shields (11:34):

Allow me to take a moment, Daniel, to remind our listeners that we really do appreciate your feedback. Let us know if we're providing the kind of content that's helpful to you by dropping me an email at info@DoorWays dot cc. And if you have an idea for a guest or for a topic, let me know. We'll work at incorporating that into our podcast schedule.

(11:54):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields and I'm joined on this episode with Dr. Daniel Isgrigg, an associate professor and Pentecostal historian at Oral Roberts University in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

I found another really interesting reflection in your book, "The Average Pastor" that I'd like you to comment about. It's the part that says, "They always leave."

Daniel Isgrigg (12:16):

Yeah.

Ric Shields (12:17):

That's interesting.

Daniel Isgrigg (12:19):

I mean, everybody loves it, especially as a small church, when a new family shows up, and I would tell my leaders, when you're a church of 60, let's say, and a church of five or a family of five shows up, then you've just increased exponentially. Right? If you have two families of five, you just increase exponentially again. And so, you know, there's always a lot of really wonderful energy around new families coming. The problem is it's exactly the same when people leave, is you take a huge hit when just one family would leave.

(12:58):

And I used to just ring my hands over that if 15% of your church walks out the door the next Sunday, and that's what happened to us. We had three families move in the same year, and all of the gain that we'd made over the last year had dropped back off.

Ric Shields (13:15):

Disappeared.

Daniel Isgrigg (13:15):

Yeah. They disappeared. And they were leaving for all very good reasons, you know, jobs or ministry or missions or whatever.

(13:25):

 But yet it hurts, right? It hurts when you drop down. I finally had to tell myself, and I told my church, I said, “At some point, God led that family to come here, and we rejoiced. So, we can't ring our hands when God leaves that family to go somewhere else. You know, we rejoiced when they came. We're going to make a conscious decision that we're going to rejoice when they leave.” Because they always come, and they always leave. That's just the natural part.

(13:58):

And so, we just had to change the way we thought about a lot of different things. I know I did. I had to change the way I thought. I wasn't going to let that be a depressing thing for me anymore. I was going to celebrate the fact that they do come, and they do leave and it's hard, but we can, they're going somewhere else. And that group that they're going to go join is going to, be happy that they're there and we can rejoice in those kinds of things. And at the end of the day, they're God's people anyway.

Ric Shields (14:30):

And it's God's Church.

Daniel Isgrigg (14:31):

And it's God's church, and my job is to pastor the people he gives us and not worry about the people who are not there. Those just mindset things were the, the turning points for me to let people go and not equate my own value based upon that. So

Ric Shields (14:49):

And just, just to go back and reflect here a minute, it's not that we don't care about people who aren't there. We want everybody to be a part of the kingdom, but the kingdom may be bigger than our average church.

Daniel Isgrigg (15:00):

Absolutely.

Ric Shields (15:00):

There may be other average churches as well that they're a part of, so it's not like, yeah, they're not here. Don't worry about it. It's that we believe that God is going to use us to minister to the people who are coming to this place. And there may be others who come, too, But for now, these are the ones we're going to focus on.

Daniel Isgrigg (15:16):

And the thing is, if that family came to us for a time and we are so grateful for them, and we know that the next church is going to be grateful for them as well. And so, we're, we're happy for that church too.

(15:31):

And I remember when we had a worship leader that stepped down and they decided to leave and go somewhere else. And when they decided to go to that other church, I called that pastor and I said, “You're just, you're about to get an amazing family, and I want you to know how helpful and wonderful they've been for us. They felt like their time was done here, but I want you to know that they're going to be awesome for you.” And that pastor appreciated that so much. And now that family is a really strong family in that other church, and they're blessed by that.

(16:03):

That is the kingdom mentality that you're talking about and is that these people don't belong to us anyway. They're here and we enjoy them, and when they leave, we wish them well and accept the next group that comes in.

Ric Shields (16:18):

In your book, you wrote, "Because I pastor an average sized church, I've been a painter, a plumber, an IT manager, a drummer, a sound tech, an accountant, a designer, a CEO, an electrician, a psychologist, a weather prognosticator, a marriage counselor, and a life coach." That is a lot of roles to fill, a lot of hats to wear. But you're no longer the pastor of a church. So, how does that feel, and do you ever miss it? Do think you'll ever fill that role again?

Daniel Isgrigg (16:51):

This is theology according to me, so take it for what it's worth. But I think we're called to minister, and I think we're called to give ourselves for people. And that can take a lot of different forms. What I loved about the church was getting to help people when they needed it. What I didn't like about pastoring was carrying the burden that all of this rests on my shoulders.

(17:17):

And so, one of my greatest regrets of pastoring was that I didn't involve more people and that I didn't let go of ministry and really share it as much as I should have, because I think I could have had a better experience. But because of that, I held on too tightly and I carried a lot of stuff I didn't necessarily need to. So, I don't really miss that. But what I do miss is, I miss that community was a great community.

(17:44):

They were wonderful people. I miss that group of people, but I don't miss that burden that pastors carry that says, “I can never have a day off.” I used to tell my church, “I need a Sabbath, which means one day a week, I can't be your pastor and obey God.” So, I said, “Monday is my Sabbath. So, Monday, I am not your pastor. I get to be me, and I get to be a husband. I get to be these other things.”

(18:10):

You know, those were really healthy boundaries. And I don't miss that part that you've carried that burden 24/7. I've found new ways to help people. And in my role here at ORU I am training ministers in very practical and real ways. And that's, you know, that's meaningful as well.

(18:29):

I don't like the idea that we're called the one thing for the rest of our lives. I think God can call us to all kinds of things. You could do one thing well and still transition to another type of ministry. And I think that's good and healthy. And I think that's the way God uses people. So, I'm all for this transition from one thing to another because it's all ministry.

Ric Shields (18:49):

I'd like you, if you would, for you to pray for those who are listening, whether or not they're pastors. Ask the Lord, on their behalf, to send the resources they need; money, people time, creativity or whatever they may need to help them on their journey as they're following after Jesus to be the most effective people possible in their situation.

Daniel Isgrigg (19:10):

Sure. Lord, I thank you that you create us uniquely. And just as I had skills I didn't know about that would help me with my ministry as an average pastor of an average church, Lord, each person that's listening, you've given them unique skills and talents and callings. And Lord, that you can use them to be the right person at the right time in the, in the place that they're serving.

(19:35):

And so, whatever encouragement that they need today, Lord, I pray you provide it. Whatever resources that they need, I pray that you will provide them. Lord, I just thank you that you call people to serve other people and that that calling Lord comes with the equipping that you have.

(19:55):

And so, I just bless every person in ministry today and ask you, Lord, to refresh them and renew them. Help them to reconnect. Help them to know that the place that they're serving is exactly the way that you wanted it to be. And they are the exact person you have called to fill that position for today.

(20:15):

And so, Lord, we just release all of that to you and thank you for the opportunity to serve your people. In Jesus name, amen.

Ric Shields (20:24):

I hope you found this podcast to be helpful. If there's someone you think may also enjoy your benefit from this episode, please consider passing the link along to share with them.

(20:35):

If you'd like someone to pray for you, drop me a note at info@DoorWays dot cc. I'll pray for you. And if you'd like, I will share your note with others who will pray and believe for God to work on your behalf.

(20:47):

Until next time, may the Lord bless you as you'll follow after him. Thanks for listening.