Wounded Healers Giving Hope

On this episode, Mary Kay Blum discusses her role as a pastoral counselor and explains how Agape Hope provides counseling and care for pastors, ministers, and missionaries from various organizations, churches and evangelical denominations.

Blum also discusses the common reasons for pastors or ministers to seek help, including trauma, unresolved grief, and communication difficulties. 

Mary Kay concludes by offering encouraging words to pastors or ministers who may be feeling frustrated or discouraged.

Transcript

Announcer (00:00):

Welcome to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast.

Ric Shields (00:11):

I'm so glad you've joined us on this episode. I'm Ric Shields, and I serve as your host and as the director of the DoorWays® Ministry Network. I'm speaking today with my friend Mary Kay Blum. She has served alongside her husband Pete in pastoral ministry church planting and in missions work by providing biblical training to persecuted church leaders in Northern Asia. After serving for several years as lay pastors in various areas of ministry and outreach, they became full-time church planters in Colorado. And about 13 years ago, they moved to Issaquah Washington, where they served on a church staff for five years.

(00:47):

Mary Kay currently serves as a pastoral counselor with the Ministry of Agape Hope that provides pastoral counseling and care for vocational pastors, ministers, and missionaries from a variety of evangelical denominations, organizations, and churches. I know you're a busy lady, Mary Kay. So, thank you for joining me on this episode.

Mary Kay Blum (01:06):

Yeah. I don't like to think of myself as busy because we know busyness isn't the goal, but sometimes I am busy. I'm so glad to be here with you, Ric. Thank you.

Ric Shields (01:15):

Well, it's been a few years ago, Mary Kay, that we served together on a church staff in Tulsa, Oklahoma. You were the best administrative assistant I ever had to work with, I think, and we worked hard, but we still managed to have quite a bit of fun at the same time.

Mary Kay Blum (01:31):

That is so true. I just want to say it's all grace that you thought I was the best administrative assistant you ever had. <Laugh>. I'm wondering how many you have had. I, you know, you don't know how young and dumb you are until you grow up a little bit. So, thanks for putting up with me.

(01:50):

My favorite memory, Ric memory, is when I walked into your office and your file cabinets were marked, “Eenie, Meany, Miney, and Moe.” That was the best!

Ric Shields (02:00):

Yeah. Okay. Well, that's a while back, isn't it? Wow. <laugh>. Well, tell us a bit about Agape Hope. What is it and who do they serve?

Mary Kay Blum (02:09):

Yeah, so anyone who is in vocational ministry, whether it's a pastor missionary, leads a Christian nonprofit, but they basically dedicated their lives to serve the Lord and his people and build his kingdom. Those are the people that come to us for a variety of reasons, right? It can be everything from grief issues to marital struggles, to ministry burnout, compassion, fatigue, missionaries having isolation on the field or reentry problems needing to just debrief.

(02:48):

So, we just kind of, it's, it's a smattering of anything and everything. We just like to walk with our guests in whatever they're going through and be a catalyst instrument of healing in their lives. You know, bringing a fresh dose of God's agape love to our guests.

Ric Shields (03:07):

Mary Kay, I, you graduated with a music major and a minor in Spanish from Oral Roberts University,

Mary Kay Blum (03:15):

A double major

Ric Shields (03:16):

What! A double major?

Mary Kay Blum (03:19):

It was. Yeah. Know those two do not go together, do they?

Ric Shields (03:22):

No. And, and I'm trying to figure out how this works into a counseling, a pastoral counseling role. Do you play the flute while people are talking with you or speak to them in Spanish? How does that work?

Mary Kay Blum (03:34):

Yeah. You don't know who you are until you grow up. So, I love playing the flute and I love the Spanish culture. I'd done a missions trip in Spain. I'd lived in Spain my junior year of college. I just went for the things that resonated with my soul, but over the course of many years, I realized I love people more. So now I'm into the people business.

Ric Shields (04:00):

Just as a, a fun story, I remember you told me when you went to Spain and you were giving a devotional and a nice little fishing village, and you were telling people that they needed to stop fishing because the word for sin and fish is pretty similar. And, and these people were kind of confused what we are <laugh>, we're fishermen. I don't want to tell the stories of things I've said.

Mary Kay Blum (04:26):

Yeah, no, I had very limited Spanish skills when I was asked to give that devo. So, I thought, I thought what I could just focus on is love God and hate sin, but instead I was saying love God and hate fish. And they, they just had a heyday with that. Yeah.

Ric Shields (04:44):

Yeah. I'm <laugh> I'm sure that was pretty good. <Laugh>.

(04:47):

All right, well let, let's get back to the topic at hand here. Let's talk about Agape Hope and you and pastoral counseling. A couple of years ago the Barnard Group reported that 42% of ministers have considered quitting. I just want to know, does that number seem right to you, or do you have statistics on the actual number of pastors or ministers who are leaving their ministry assignments? Because I understand ministry attrition is a really big issue right now.

Mary Kay Blum (05:16):

Yeah, it is. I have similar data, so I pulled some stuff just to see, you know, it's changing all the time. So, it's always good to kind of check your sources. Pastoral care inc.com, if people want to look it up, they have an article on their website with the statistics in the ministry, but it's been compiled by a number of sources. Fuller Institute, the Barna Group, Lifeway Schafer Institute, Christianity Today. So, it's, it's like a compilation of all of that very similar, and it, and Covid kind of revealed covid. I wouldn't say Covid caused the issue. It just

Ric Shields (06:01):

It exacerbated the issue.

Mary Kay Blum (06:03):

Yeah. It revealed this underlying issue of not ministering from a healthy place.

Ric Shields (06:09):

So, what do those numbers look like?

Mary Kay Blum (06:11):

Very similar to you. They say 38% of pastors, but we've heard it higher than that or thinking of quitting, but over 50% are from mainline denominations. And a lot of them were not set up for success from the start. It's the reconciling of disappointment and unrealistic expectations and unhealthy boundaries, and not having good communication skills or knowing how to stay healthy in ministry. Really that's part of it is how do we stay healthy in ministry?

(06:49):

So, the statistics you ask for some pre COVID, 90% of pastors reported working 55 to 75 hours a week. 85% of those pastors felt like they were on call 24/7. Eighty percent believe that ministry has had a negative impact on their families. So, it just goes on and on. There are so many statistics here I can't cover them all. But 90% of pastors reported that ministry was completely different than what they thought they would be doing.

Ric Shields (07:29):

I would suggest that as many as 90% of ministers on Monday wake up and say, “I’m going to quit” because something didn't go well on Sunday. And no, I'm, I'm being funny. It's not too funny, <laugh>, but it's almost true because they preach and maybe people didn't respond as they wish they would, or they get to church and people haven't showed up, they're out somewhere else.

(07:53):

And Mondays are hard days. In fact, I interviewed a gentleman several months ago that said, don't quit on Mondays, wait till Tuesday because Mondays are always a hard day for ministers.

(08:07):

So, you, you've alluded to some of the main reasons why clergy are, are leaving the ministry. Tell us about that. What are some of the main reasons clergy are leaving?

Mary Kay Blum (08:18):

Well, I, the one that has been the most impactful that we, we just refer to a lot where I work at Agape Hope, is research that was done back in the early nineties that has just, right. So now we have more than 30 years on of that, or 25 years on that has just made that research even more reliable. And what it is, what are the four areas that lead to ministerial burnout and premature attrition? And those four areas, which, this doesn't just apply to missionaries and ministers, really, if you think about it, it applies to anybody who wants to let their life be used for God's purposes and finish. Well, at some point, we all face these four areas.

(09:11):

And the first one is unrealistic expectations. Whether we've put them on ourselves or others have put them on us, but we don't think it through clearly to challenge those. They're not God expectations. They're clearly unrealistic.

(09:29):

The next one is unhealthy relationships. Having this idyllic view that because I'm in ministry and I love people and I love Jesus and, and I'm rubbing shoulders with the body of Christ, I'll just know how to do relationship well.

(09:44):

The third area is unresolved background issues. I have seen how many times we can take scripture and we can almost twist it and use it as a weapon against our own souls. So like if the scripture says, I forget what's in the past or leaving the past behind me, I press onto what's ahead. Sounds great. But we see that when Paul says that he is very aware of his past. And so, one way to see that is if my past is still tripping me up in my present, it's not my past, it's my present. I've just carried all that past baggage I've never learned to heal, like deal with it. Let God heal it. Let God use it as part of my testimony to serve others and bring him glory. It's so, it just trips us up. So, if there's unresolved background issues, that's another area that leads to burnout and attrition.

(10:45):

And then the last area is unproductive coping skills or life skills. Like it works until it doesn't work. So I have a way of managing the stress, or I have a way of avoiding conflict or whatever the issue is. If I don't have biblical skills, they really need to be founded in the truth of God's word.

(11:07):

So, what do people do when they come to Agape Hope? Honestly, they look at their personhood, what's going on in them physically, relationally, spiritually, and in their heart. The heart is the seat of our thinking, our emotions, and our decision making.

(11:30):

And when you take those four quadrants and you look at what's going on in my heart, God show me my heart, right? Psalm 139:23-24, “Search my heart, God know me. Try me, test me. See my anxious thoughts.”

(11:47):

The Psalmist David is asking God. He goes, God, you know my heart, but I don't know my heart. So, we take those things and then we look at those four areas that can just lead to a lot of brokenness and heartache in ministry. And we start unpacking that with our guests. And we just watch the Holy Spirit, who's the master counselor, do what he does best. It's not us. We are wounded healers. We don't rely on ourselves.

Ric Shields (12:17):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields and I'm joined on this episode with Mary Kay Blum. She's a pastoral counselor with Agape Hope in Woodville Washington in the greater Seattle area. Agape Hope provides pastoral counseling and care for vocational pastors, ministers, and missionaries from a variety of evangelical denominations, organizations, and churches.

(12:41):

Mary Kay, I understand that a person doesn't have to travel to the Seattle area to receive help from Agape Hope. Is that correct?

Mary Kay Blum (12:49):

Yeah. Up until Covid they did have to come <laugh>, so for 24 years of our ministry, everyone took a sabbatical or gave themselves this gift of a mini, mini retreat and came for a two-week intensive in-person. And what that looks like is it's two weeks because we do four days Monday through Thursday with our guests and they get two sessions back-to-back, which equals about two and a half hours of counseling a day. Plus, there's outside assignments and other things that are in their highest goods. So, we, it's kind of tailored to what our guests need. So, they're there for four days, then there's a three-day break, and then they do it all over again.

(13:35):

Well, COVID shut all of that down. Washington state was one of the last to open, you know, so it was great. The Lord had different things in mind for us because we had to instantly adjust to doing counseling in a confidentiality sort of way online and provide all these resources in a digital format that we're able to help our guests.

(14:01):

But by doing that, our counseling has exploded because it's opened up to, missionaries can be on the field. Not everyone has to come, they can just be where they are. But we do ask them to unhook. If they try to fit intensive counseling on top of their already busy lives, it doesn't go very well.

(14:22):

But it, it's now our scheduler, Bonnie Karnes is to me, she is just like, she's like Jesus kind of. She can walk on water <laugh>. She knows how, she knows how to schedule people from all over the world in every time zone and fit all that into our available counselor schedules.

(14:46):

And we can, it, it's been beautiful to see how we have sat with people. And man, I wish I had the, the most current statistic, I'd say it's fifty-one different countries. We've ministered to over 1900 missionaries and pastors, and it's all fifty states. So, it's

Ric Shields (15:08):

Mary Kay, before, before speaking with you. And by the way, you're two hours behind us or depending on how you look at it, two hours behind us in Tulsa, I just spoke with a missionary, did an interview with him and co devo Africa, who's five hours ahead of us. So, I almost have jet lag just talking with the two of you today. Good for you that you can talk with people and get these scheduled the right way. Isn't it amazing?

(15:32):

I've said to many people that Covid could have been debilitating, but we were able to use tools that, we'll call it the world, not the church the world had developed before COV for the glory of God to advance the kingdom. And I think it's been fabulous. This whole thing didn't take God by surprise. No. And we're able to use it and, and benefit from it. So, I think that's, that's pretty cool. Anyway. What are some of the most common reasons for a pastor, a minister, or a missionary to reach out for help?

Mary Kay Blum (16:07):

Well, I kind of hit some of those.

Ric Shields (16:09):

Yes, you did.

Mary Kay Blum (16:10):

But I'll add to the list. Trauma very lay definition of trauma is when an ordinary person experiences extraordinary events or even a single event that's beyond their ability to cope. Anyone in ministry is set up for trauma. And a lot of times we just have not developed the skills to know what to do with it. That's one area.

(16:39):

 Grief, unresolved grief issues. Not just taking the time to acknowledge what's going on in our hearts and grieve well so that Jesus meets us in our grief. He weeps with those who weep. The way we receive the comfort of God is to acknowledge and open our heart to the, the grief that's within. A lot of guests come and they just realize we, I have compounded grief issues. My life has stayed busy for decades and I have never learned how to grieve.

(17:17):

Well, those are two very common areas and sometimes it's just, it is like they don't know how to communicate well. They don't know how to resolve resolution, resolve the, the stirrings in their heart that just don't have a place to land.

(17:37):

So, we do a lot of story work, letting people see their story through the light of God's love and do all those wrestlings, you know, is God when the worst of life happens. And, and so you need a safe place. I think people in ministry have a hard time finding a place they feel safe to be real. I think a lot of them feel like they have to be bigger than themselves or better than themselves. They need to live, live up to the people they serve. They want to live up to their expectations of them. And so, they need a place where they can take that off. Lay that one down <laugh> and just be human.

Ric Shields (18:22):

Reflecting a little bit on what you said earlier. I previously served as a hospice chaplain and I believe I helped people by reminding them what Jesus said in the Beatitudes Matthew chapter five, when he said, blessed are those who mourn for they will be comforted. And I would say to them what that says, if you want comfort, then you will need to grieve and you'll need to mourn those who don't grieve and mourn. They won't receive comfort that they need from the Holy Spirit. And so, let's commit ourselves to healthy grieving and believe that the Holy Spirit will meet us in that whole process.

Mary Kay Blum (18:57):

In some notes we shared before this episode, you wrote that we need to learn how to relate to one another in a way that is therapeutic. I don't know what you mean by that. What do you mean?

(19:06):

Yeah, again, I'll, one of the things that really excites us in our ministry, because our ministry, we have a narrow approach, but we know it works. So, we stick with it. The narrow approach is we are spirit empowered, Bible-based, Christ-centered. The average counseling clinic is not able to fully utilize those resources. But by staying at a pastoral counseling care center, we are afforded that privilege, which is just awesome.

(19:37):

So, one of the things that excites us is in the, when the psychological field does research that validates biblical truth. So, they don't set out to do that. They set out to gather secular research and statistics and when what they li end up with is something that fully aligns with biblical truth, <laugh>, that is like a sweet spot.

Ric Shields (20:00):

That's pretty great, isn't it?

Mary Kay Blum (20:01):

Yeah, it's awesome. So, this was years and years ago. Some psychological researchers are like, what makes a counseling relationship therapeutic? And these are the three areas. And it, you don't have to be a counselor or a counselee to do relationships this way, <laugh>.

(20:23):

So, the three areas are accurate empathy. So that just means I am willing to open my heart and feel what you feel and sit in that with you just accurately relate to your feelings. That's the first area, the second area, they call it unconditional positive regard. And means, I am going to accept you for you. I'm going to accept you for where you are and for who you are. And you don't have to change for me to love you. That's a, so these are growth points for all of us. Because sometimes we realize, wait a minute, I really want this person to gain skills to grow beyond where they're at.

(21:11):

So, you know, we do have that desire and yet we have to learn to just receive them the way they came to us. We accept you as you are where you are. The last area, they call it genuineness, which is, I'm not going to lead with a professional edge. I don't want to show up in this session as the expert, like I've got all the answers, but I'm willing to sit with you and be as genuine with you as I'm asking you to be with me. So, it's where we take off our masks and we both meet each other from this place of being human together.

(21:50):

Well, those three areas, you know, the Bible talks about Jesus who was full of grace and truth, and God who is love. And genuineness is just part of truth. Accurate empathy is just part of mercy. And unconditional positive regard is just a small piece of grace. So, what the Bible offers us in Christ and in the way the Bible gives us all those one another’s in scripture on how to do relationship. It affirms the research that they came up with in those three areas.

Ric Shields (22:35):

Mary Kay, I'm sorry to say, our time is coming to a close, but I want to say thank you. This has been fabulous.

(22:41):

I cannot help but assume Mary Kay, that there are pastors or ministers listening to this podcast who are frustrated and discouraged, they may be hanging on by their fingernails and may even be on the verge of quitting. First, what words of encouragement would you give to them? And second then, would you conclude our time together with prayer?

Mary Kay Blum (23:04):

I would love to. Thanks, Ric. Thank you so much for this opportunity. Well, first of all, I'm going to give you one of our core values, and that is God loves you and he loves you in a way that's healing. I think in ministry we're so busy wanting to love others and serve others. We forget that we need it most. We can't give what we don't have to those who are hopeless or feeling despair or burned out.

(23:35):

If you want to explore having some pastoral counselors walk with you, our ministry is maybe a right fit for you. I don't know. But we meet people who are interested. We meet with them for an hour and we do an intro and we let them vet us out <laugh> and ask all the questions they want. And if it's the right fit, the Lord many times opens the door for them to come and receive hope and healing.

Ric Shields (24:06):

And how do they reach you? How do, how do they do that?

Mary Kay Blum (24:08):

There's if they want to go to our website, it's agapehope.com. And on there, there's some forms that they'll see tabs across the top of the page. There’re ways to contact us or forms to fill out or for further information. And then our scheduler would connect with them and get them scheduled for an intro with some of our counselors.

(24:34):

Lord, you are good and you are God. And we just look to you. We thank you that you are the one who is in control. We thank you that you are the one who made us to love us, to be with us, to send Jesus, to walk among us, to die for us, to set us free from sin and shame and to show us a better way to live and do life and relationship. And we just want to give you the praise.

(25:03):

And thanks for being who you are. We know you to be good, Lord. We pray for the people listening today that they would be reminded how much you love them and you've never stopped loving them, and you see them where they're at and you want to meet their need. In Jesus' name. Amen.

Ric Shields (25:26):

I hope you found this podcast to be helpful. If there's someone you think may also enjoy or benefit from this episode, please consider passing the link along to share with them.

(25:37):

If you'd like someone to pray for you, drop me a note at info@DoorWays.cc. I'll pray for you. And if you'd like, I will share your note with others who will pray and believe for God to work on your behalf.

(25:49):

Until next time, may the Lord bless you as you'll follow after him. Thanks for listening.