Better Than the Alternative?

The DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast is currently running a series called "Final Things", which discusses topics related to end-of-life planning and experiences. In the current episode, Reverend Phil Taylor joins Ric Shields to discuss a biblical perspective on death and dying, the concept of a "good death", and the role of faith and grace in healing and death. They also emphasize the importance of trusting in God's plan and timing.

Transcript

BETTER THAN THE ALTERNATIVE?
Guest: Rev. Phil Taylor
S3, E27

Ric Shields (00:00):

Welcome to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast.

(00:11):

Thank you for joining us on this episode. I'm Ric Shields, your host and the director of the DoorWays® Ministry Network. We're currently in a series called Final Things. In earlier episodes, we've spoken about advance planning and things like wills, trust and property interest. We've spoken about pre-planning and the importance of having discussions with family about our final wishes.

(00:33):

I interviewed Dr. Ed Rylander about the difficult conversations a physician has with terminally ill patients and their families, and we discussed what happens when it's time for us to consider hospice care. By the way, all of these previous episodes and more are available to you on your favorite podcast app or on our host site doorways.buzzsprout.com. That's doorways.buzzprout, B-U-Z-Z-S-P-R-O-U-T.com.

(01:03):

In future episodes, I'll chat with Vicki LaFave, a hospital chaplain, about her experiences in dealing with the death of patients and the impact on their families.

(01:13):

Jack Hayhurst, the owner of Hayhurst Funeral Home, will talk with us about working with families to provide a meaningful memorial service to honor their loved ones. I think you'll find he has a heart to serve grieving families, and you'll appreciate his insights.

(01:27):

And Karol Miller will discuss the topic of grief and loss with us. She has suffered the loss of several immediate family members over the years and now facilitates Grief Share classes at her church. I know you'll appreciate her understanding of the grieving process.

(01:43):

Today I'm joined by my friend Reverend Phil Taylor, the Pastor Emeritus of Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Pastor Phil served as the senior pastor there for 38 years before retiring in May of 2023. Pastor Phil earned a Master of Science in Family Relations and Child Development from Oklahoma State University and a Master of Arts in Pastoral Theology from Oral Roberts University. He's one of my favorite theologians because of his skill in taking difficult concepts and breaking them down into terms easily understood by most people.

(02:17):

I've asked Pastor Phil to talk with us today about a difficult topic. We're going to discuss a theology of death and dying. It will not be an academic discussion. There are likely to be those who strongly disagree with us. Please know we're not trying to stir up controversy or hard feelings. Having worked with terminally ill and dying patients and their families over the years, I've had a chance to see some pretty confusing doctrines and practices that don't seem to add up to what scripture teaches. Pastor Phil, I really hope you can help us to make sense, or at least to better understand this final thing that we're all likely to share.

Phil Taylor (02:56):

Well, I appreciate the opportunity to, to visit with you, and hopefully the Lord will help us to, to maybe help with some clarity or at least to give us another way to think about some things. 

Ric Shields (03:08):

I think we're going to need his help. I really do. Yeah.

Phil Taylor (03:10):

Yeah, absolutely.

Ric Shields (03:12):

We spoke for a few minutes yesterday as we prepared for this episode, and I asked you to address a theology of death and dying. Now, the word theology literally means the study of God. So, when we speak about a theology of death and dying, I think we're really talking about what God has to say about death and dying. So, what do you understand God says to us about this topic?

Phil Taylor (03:37):

Well, obviously he says more and less than what we want to know. Sometimes, I think the place to start is to kind of acknowledge that I don't think that was the original plan, at least not from what we see in Genesis, that, that Adam and Eve were, they were going to inhabit this garden and, and do the work God called him to do and live in obedience and walk with him and, and have fellowship with him. But then rebellion and sin was introduced. The Bible says that sin, when it's, when it's fully conceived, and then it leads to death. Paul later says that by one man, death entered the world sin and consequently death through Adam. Well, then through one man there is redemption of sin and, and eternal life through Christ. So, it wasn't the original plan that we were going to live and die.

(04:32):

And yet, I think, I think when God set a limit to, to Adam and Eve's existence, he was being merciful. If you remember in, in Genesis, then you kind of hear this conversation where the Lord says, well, then we need to put a guard an angel with a fiery sword so, that they don't go in and eat from the tree of life and live forever, because that would be merciful to, for them to die rather than to live forever with the shame of sin. And you know, the bondage that comes with sin. And so, in that sense, then it kind of changes the way we think about death. And the way God allows us to view it is that, okay, something's changed. So, we get a couple of weird pictures. So, Paul says, the last enemy to be defeated is death.

(05:22):

So, death is an enemy. But then the scripture also, says, blessed in the sight of the Lord is the death of his saints, they rest from their labor. So, is death an enemy? Is death a blessing? It's a product of the curse. And we've been redeemed from the curse, but we've not been fully redeemed from it because people still die. Paul says, oh, death, where is your str sting? Oh, grave. Whereas your victory, and I, I hear preachers preach about that. Like, see, we've got this victory, but our loved ones are still dying, you know? And so, we still grieve over that. So, God gives us some pictures here. Jesus conquered death through his death and gives us eternal life, then that makes sense, <laugh>.

Ric Shields (06:07):

Well, that's a very, it's a difficult topic to understand, especially for those of us who have never been there. Oh, come to think of it. None of us have ever been there, but all of us are likely to get there. Unless the Lord returns, we're all going to get there. I think our understanding is all this side of eternity, and obviously our understanding is limited because we haven't experienced it.

Phil Taylor (06:30):

And let me say too, when we talk about having a, a theology of death, then like a, a systematic theology, you know, that let's, okay, let's take the category of death and try to explain everything there is about it. It's impossible for us to do. Again, everything is seen then through the lens of Christ, the resurrected one. And so, that changes everything. It, it fully changes the way we approach death as believers, as followers of Christ. So, that's why Paul says, we sorrow, but not as those who have no hope. Our, you know, our understanding of it is, is right of Hebrews says that, that he delivered us from the fear of death, that that held us like a slave. We're not afraid of dying because I'm going to go to heaven, you know? And so, well…

Ric Shields (07:22):

I'd like to believe that that's really why we're having this conversation. Because my base level of concern here is how Christian believers view our final days. And it seems confusing when I, just in passing ask someone how they're doing and they respond, “better than the alternative.”

And I get it. It's just a figure of speech. But it also seems to really reinforce that entire concept of the fear that we hold to what death is, what eternity looks like for us. It's so contrary to what Apostle Paul wrote in Philippians chapter one, verse 21, “for me to live as Christ, to die is gain.” I think I understand his intention in writing there, but maybe you can explain it to us. What do you think Paul was trying to say?

Phil Taylor (08:12):

Well, you know, so, Paul's in prison when he writes that, and he's writing to his friends, this beloved church, you know, Philippians is where he says, “I thank God on every remembrance of you.” So, he loves them all dearly. And, but it's here that he says, “look, I expect to be, you know, set free here. I expect to get out of jail. But if I don't, well then, you know, (it may be the old saying) it may be curtains for me.” Then he says, “but for me to live, it is Christ, it's better for you, but it's better for me if I die.” He actually says in that context, that's fruitful labor, but I'm torn between the two “because I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better, but it's more necessary for you that I remain.” So, Paul's view of death was like, oh, no, this is not something to be feared.

(09:06):

This is what I desire. This is what I'm living for. I'm striving, I'm reaching for this prize of being in the Lord's presence. And in every sense, it was going to be gain. So, indeed, as the scripture says, “we'll rest from our labor.” And so, yeah. No more sorrow, no more pain in his presence. He wipes the tears from our eyes. So, there's gain in every sense.

(09:29):

I hear what you're saying about people, “Well, better than the alternative.” Well, wait; you mean the alternative of dying and going home and being with Jesus and thriving in his presence? That doesn't sound so bad. So, we, we walk in this balance. It kind of takes us back to this “now and not yet” thing of the kingdom. And, we walk in the balance, too, with this theology of suffering and dying and death that, yeah, Heaven is what's on the other side of it. But that getting there is what we kind of, what we fear. I don't fear going to heaven, but I fear being in excruciating pain <laugh>. Yeah. But that's going to be the process or whatever.

Ric Shields (10:09):

What's the worst that could happen? Well, you could die a slow, painful death is the worst that could happen. Yeah.

(10:14):

You used the term, “the inevitability of death” when we spoke prior to recording this episode. And I agree with you. “Unless or until the Lord returns through his church at a second coming, we are all going to die a physical death. But I've known people to hold prayer vigils for elderly saints or family members that God would heal them. And I just wonder, is there a point when we need to consider giving people a space to die?

Phil Taylor (10:43):

Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, I mean, I've known the response of people and I understand that sudden sense of loss. But, you know, to kind of say when somebody's, you know, 92 years old, “I don't understand why this has happened.” Well, do you want the long version that, because sin entered the world well then, you know, we're destined to die and our bodies begin to decay and all, but yeah, they lived a, they lived a great life, and that. And I'm, the older I get, I don't want anybody to minimize that. Like, “well, you're getting pretty old. Why don't you just die?” You know, that's not the point. We want to live and live fully until it's the Lord's time.

(11:23):

But I think it's important for us not just to give permission to people to die, but for the church to actually begin to think and speak again about what it means to die a good death.

(11:38):

You reminded me that Brother McQueen used to comment about, he was the pastor before me at Carbondale that I served, and but he said, I can remember as a boy hearing what he called the old timers growing up in Texas, say in their prayer, “and give us a quiet hour in which to die.” The idea there is that, yeah, there, there's a good death. There's a sense in which, particularly if it's one of an older person, and we kind of come to the end and our family gathers around us that we can say to them, “boy, I've served the Lord and now I'm going to go home and be with Jesus.” We, we hear those stories kind of anecdotally, but the, the concern is that nobody talks about it prior to, you know, some kind of last day or some kind of hospice conversation when maybe we have a responsibility as pastors and leaders then to encourage, you know, that kind of thinking for the whole church, that even as youngsters we're thinking about, yeah, and someday this is what's going to happen.

(12:43):

You know, we live with an eye to eternity. So, whether you're 12 or whether you're a hundred, you're thinking about someday I'm going to, this is going to be gone. I'm not going to be here. I'm going to be in the presence of God. How do I live my life? And for us to kind of help people prepare for that in a spiritual sense that, you know, the scripture says, again, talking about this theology, “there's a time to be born and a time to die.” The writer of Ecclesiastes didn't see that either as a bad thing. It was just, this is a part of life.

(13:17):

Every married couple, you know, I used to tell him when I did premarital counseling as a pastor, here's the reality. God's plan was that one man and one woman for a lifetime, and one of you, lovely, 21-year-old kids sitting in my office, one of you someday will stand at the casket and close the lid on the other. And I hope that's not too morbid for your listeners of the podcast, but that is the reality. So, as believers, then, well, let's be prepared for that and know that especially for maybe the elders in our family or life, let's let them talk about this. I just think the worst thing we can do is to say, “Oh, we mustn't talk about death or dying,” or to make it this horrible thing. No, the reality is, it is the door that leads us into the Lord's presence.

Ric Shields (14:15):

And the psalmist wrote in Psalm 139, “All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” I like to remind people that we will not die a day early, and neither will we die a day late. We will not live less than or more than the days that God has ordained for us.

Let me ask you this. Is there somewhere in scripture, or perhaps in early church history, where believers are given instructions to rebuke the Spirit of Death? How does that work? Because I, I've seen that, you and I have seen that.

Phil Taylor (14:51):

Yeah.

Ric Shields (14:52):

How does that work?

Phil Taylor (14:53):

You know, boy, <laugh>, why don't you tell us how that works?

Ric Shields (14:58):

Yeah, I'd like to. It's confusing.

Phil Taylor (15:01):

It is. And I think, in some sense, it becomes a little bit of a matter of semantics. It's just how we choose to talk about that the Spirit of Death. We, as Pentecostal charismatic believers, we put that title on a lot of things. Well, I've got this spirit or this anointing for whatever, you know, and you know, I, I'm not sure…

Ric Shields (15:27):

Well, there's a spirit of poverty. There's a spirit, a lying spirit. I think there's a fat spirit, too, somewhere. 

Phil Taylor (15:33):

I think I may have a little touch of that myself, <laugh>.

Ric Shields (15:36):

I think I may

Phil Taylor (15:38):

<Crosstalk>.

Ric Shields (15:38):

And, and you said to me, you said to me early, “Why don't you explain that to me?” And, and let me just back up and say, the reason why this is a topic in my mind, it's confusing, is that I don't see it in scripture. I just don't see it. And yet, I was in Niger, Africa with a missionary friend, Dr. Mike McGee and Brent Teague and Charity Harris. And there was a little girl that had drowned in a river. They were carrying her lifeless body out of the river. And Dr. Mike, who was a surgeon at the time, said, “Well, that little Black girl sure looks blue.” And, and she was just lifeless. She had drowned.

(16:16):

And we were preparing to leave that spot. The missionary saying, we need to go because this could be a pretty crazy deal. There were a bunch of animists, and they would be blaming us for being there that day. That's why the little girl died.

(16:30):

 And Dr. Mike said, “I think we need to rebuke the spirit of death.” And I'm going, you know, what a great, I – number one, why didn't I come up with it? I'm there, I'm a pastor. He was a surgeon. Why didn't I come up with it, number one? And number two, how do you do it? I'd never done it. I'd never seen it. And so, I was happy to just default to him, “Go ahead, Dr. Mike, and do that.” And he prayed this simple prayer of rebuking the Spirit of Death.

(16:54):

And 20 minutes later, the village chief sent an assistant running to us. It was like in the cartoon to see people running, and there's this cloud of dirt following them. That's exactly what's happening in this desert. This guy's running, there's this cloud of dirt behind him, and he's coming to say, “She's alive! She's alive!” And I'm going, I shouldn't have been surprised, but I, that spirit of death thing, I didn't quite. So, I can't say, “No, it doesn't work.” But neither can I say, “Well, this is what scripture tells us to do and how to do it.” And that's…what do we do?

Phil Taylor (17:28):

Yeah. You know, again, we try to look to the scripture. There were times when Jesus commanded a like a deaf and mute spirit to come out of someone, you know, and, and the spirit left. And there was, there was some kind of, it had affected a physical manifestation or whatever. So, that healing came. And I've prayed, you know, I've rebuked a spirit of infirmity, you know, and I think you can find some biblical basis for that. A spirit of infirmity is kind of a condition where a person you know, kind of a failure to thrive kind of thing, just to kind of sickness or whatever.

(18:05):

And so, as I said, I think some of it is maybe a matter of semantics. I don't think we can find, at least not in my recollection right now, you can't find a passage where the spirit of death, that's not, that's not something, you know. But God doesn't say to us, “You know, I was going to raise that little girl from the dead, but you used the wrong terms.” Yeah. And so, there was another way to say that. “Yeah. I'm afraid I might have to cancel that out.” So, it, at that moment we look at it like, this is a bad thing that's happened. This is not according to God's will and plan. And so, if there's a spiritual entity or something behind it, then maybe it's all right for us to kind of speak of it in that sense. But it's the same thing as like the Death Angel. “We just rebuke the Death Angel.” Well, can you find me a passage where the Death Angel is? “Well, you know, in, in Egypt, you know, the death angel moved through there.” No, if I remember correctly, the Lord said, “I'm going to pass through the town. I'll cause my spirit to pass through.” And, and if the blood's not on the doorpost…” There wasn’t necessarily an angel.

(19:18):

So, I don't know if there's a guy, whatever that where the Death Angel showed up. I don't think anyone should, that's listening. If they've, if they've prayed that prayer, you know, if, if a loved one, they're at someone's bedside and they're just saying, “I just rebuke the spirit of death” or whatever. I don't think God's going to scold them. It's not that you're doing something wrong in that. Kind of, the challenge is not to build a doctrine around it. 

Ric Shields:

And start writing books.

Phil Taylor:

Yeah. 

Ric Shields:

And to start and having conferences. 

Phil Taylor:

Yeah. Here's “The 10 Steps to Rebuke the Spirit of Death from Your Loved Ones.” And so, we're all going to be, you know, before we call the funeral home, let's follow these 10 steps and see what we can do.

(20:08):

And again, then it puts everything back on kind of this works basis that, well, we followed all the steps. I did everything in the manual here. I don't understand why they're dying. You know, let's go open the door and we'll command the Spirit of Death and evil. That kind of becomes pagan, paganistic a little bit to me.

(20:27):

You know, again, I think it goes back, and I've said this for almost for 50 years. I've been doing pastoral ministry for 50 years. And so, in those 50 years, I've stood at the bedside of all kinds of people and watched them go to heaven. I've prayed with them, sat with them, sat through the night with their families, and all those things. And I've always tried to be careful to kind of say to people, “We're going to pray and we're going to believe in faith because we know God is a healer.” He describes himself that way. I'm the Lord that heals you. That testimony is that Jesus went about doing good and healing all that we're sick and vexed by the devil.

(21:10):

And so, we know God is a healer. He put herbs in the earth that could heal. He, you know, could help us medicinally. He created our body so they could repair and heal. So, we know God's a healer, but at the same time, as we've shared today, 

“It is appointed unto man once to die.” 

“There's a time to be born, a time to die.”

“Blessed in the sight of the Lord, is the death of his saints.”

And so, all those are pieces to this too that keeps everything in balance. And we can't allow that to get out of balance. So, I've said, “We're going to pray and we're going to believe God,” but at the same time, particularly if someone, if there's a kind of a terminal diagnosis or whatever, let's talk about heaven. Let's make sure that everybody kind of gets that as well.

Ric Shields (21:58):

I remember the story of a friend who was intubated after having COVID. I think he probably was already dead, but his body was just being kept alive mechanically. And after his wife finally had a chance to see him, because, you know, in those early COVID days, somebody went to the hospital, you didn't get to go in and see them. And after she did finally have a chance to see him, she turned, left the room, walked down the hall, pronouncing, “He will live and not die.” But his heart stopped and he died just moments after they turned off the ventilator. You could ask the question, “What did she do wrong” because her confession, it seemed to be right on track, but it didn't work.

Phil Taylor (22:39):

Yeah.

Ric Shields (22:39):

What's going on there?

Phil Taylor (22:41):

So, again, we kind of go back to the, “there's a time to be born and a time to die.” And I don't know that since we're the clay, Jeremiah says, and God's the potter. I don't know, the clay doesn't get to turnaround to the potter and say, “What do you think you're doing? You know, I still thought we had some work to be done here, and instead you're scraping me off the potter's wheel and putting me on the shelf.” You know? So, I don't think she did anything wrong in that sense to, again, to declare, hey, this is, we believe this is what the Word of God says.

(23:15):

However, you know, I too have heard all kinds of people declare that I just feel like this is the verse the Lord gave me. “He's going to live and not die and declare the works of the Lord.” And sometimes that's the case, and sometimes it isn't. And it's just kind of our nature, you know, to want it to be that way always. And again, like you said a minute ago, do we say that when they're 102? You know because if God's a healer all the time, and if his will is always to heal us and never die, well, then something's going wrong somewhere. You know? So, I just think, again, we can trust the Lord and it is about trusting him. But again, I just, I think we get the focus on the wrong things. I think then the focus is he can't, you know, he can't die. She can't die. We, that's the, that's the worst thing. But again, they're going to heaven. And we then, we also, put the focus on us so, that if our loved one dies, then we're saying, “Wait a minute what did I do?”

(24:22):

Like you said, “What did I do wrong?” You know, did we let doubt creep in? Was there unbelief that creeped in? I've, in my head for, for years, <laugh>, I've intended to, to kind of write down either write a book or whatever to talk about I was going to call it, “Grace-filled Healing,” because I felt like the Lord kind of prompted my heart that we make healing always about faith, about our measure of faith, our level of faith. And then it's an out for us. Because then somebody can say, “Well he died because you just didn't have enough faith.” That's the reason why? If he'd had more faith, then God would heal him, because God is required to heal him because He promised that he would? “By his stripes, we are healed.” And so, if you just have enough faith, that's what's going to happen. And my, my position is, yes, God honors our faith, but healing comes through his grace.

Ric Shields (25:23):

I hope you'll join me next week as we continue our series on “Final Things.” Reverend Phil Taylor will join me again as we discuss some pretty practical things. For example, when a loved one receives a terminal diagnosis, is it better to watch Christian television all day or should you consider watching a few episodes of Andy Griffith? Which is better, to receive your physical healing and go fishing, or to receive your ultimate healing and be with Jesus? And then, can saying the wrong thing prevent God from expressing his mercy and grace to someone with a terminal illness?

I hope you'll join us, and I hope you'll invite a friend who needs to hear our conversation. 

Remember, you can drop me an email if you have questions or suggestions about this topic of final things. My email address is info@doorways.cc.

Until next time, this is Ric Shields. Thanks for listening.