FINAL THINGS: The Inevitability of Suffering

In the podcast episode of Final Things, Ric Shields and Pastor Phil Taylor discuss the topic of dealing with terminal illness from a Christian perspective. They explore the balance between maintaining faith and hope for healing, while also acknowledging the reality of the situation. They discuss the potential harm in ignoring the reality of a terminal diagnosis, and the importance of being able to say goodbye. 

They also discuss the concept of 'ultimate healing' in death, and the need to trust in God's plan, rather than trying to control or predict outcomes. They emphasize that suffering and death are part of life, and that faith should not be used as a means to deny this reality. They also caution against blaming oneself or others when healing does not occur, and instead encourage trust in God's wisdom and love.

Transcript

FINAL THINGS: The Inevitability of Suffering
Guest: Rev. Phil Taylor
Season 3 Episode 28

Ric Shields (00:00):

Let's say that either you or a loved one have received a terminal diagnosis from your physician. What should you do? Some will be encouraged to build their faith with healing scriptures, worship music, and a steady diet of Christian television programs that will build their faith. But should we talk openly about a difficult diagnosis, or should we be careful not to speak the name of the disease and make every effort to ignore the symptoms?

I'm Ric Shields. Today, Pastor Phil Taylor and I will discuss these topics and more on this episode of “Final Things: The Inevitability of Suffering” on the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast.

Phil Taylor (00:50):

I remember years ago, a lovely couple came to see me, and he had been diagnosed with ALS, a really bad disease. And so they had dear friends that had just encouraged them to surround themselves with faith building things and play these, you know, healing verses all the time, or have praise and worship music on, and only watch TBN or CBN or whatever it was, you know, Jan and Paul or whoever. And so, surround yourself, don't let negative thoughts come.

(01:23):

All of a sudden, they had this list of things they were having to do. It was all this kind of effort that they were putting in to…to what? To somehow convincing God to heal them? They kind of shared a little bit of that. And so, I said, and again, some of your listeners may take real exception to this, and, and that's okay, but I said, “You know what? I think I'd turned some of that off. For one thing, if you just watch 24 hours of Christian television <laugh>, you're going to be really confused at the end of the day. You're going to be confused and depressed.” So, I, but I said, “Do you like you know, the Andy Griffith show <laugh>, you know, watch something that that'll make you laugh a little bit, and it's like medicine. Yeah. you know and turn all that off. And, and if you feel like you know, you can get outside” and you know, if, I don't remember, I don't think he was in a wheelchair yet, but, you know, “Hey, go for a walk or just do something that breaks this thing, because this is not about trying to get God's attention.”

(02:31):

You know, that's what those false prophets were doing when Elijah was on the mountain up there. They were cutting themselves and falling in the fire and all this stuff, trying to get their god's attention. And Elijah just said, “Man, that what, what are you guys doing?” You know? And he just prayed a simple prayer.

(02:48):

Yeah. Healing, healing may or may not come here. It may be that the Lord's going to heal you by going to heaven, but it'd be a shame if the last six weeks of your life is spent working so hard trying to deny the possibility of death, as opposed to, let's just set and hold hands and enjoy each other's company. And let's have some people over. And let's watch old movies. And let's talk about the good things of God. And let's talk about heaven and how great God is.

(03:22):

And, you know, we change our focus. And in doing that, again, I think there's a danger that we that we make it hard for people to do that, or hard for people to talk about dying. And it ought not to be.

Ric Shields (03:36):

Pastor Phil, you know, what they say about balance. If it wasn't for the center point of a pendulum, we'd either be left or right. Neither of us want to offend anyone, but there are strong opinions on both sides of this topic.

(03:50):

Specifically, I'd like for us to consider what happens when one holds tightly to a positive confession and prayer for the healing of a loved one, and then the loved one passes away. And again, I'm not saying they shouldn't have a positive confession, don't mean to say that, but sometimes it gets to the extreme. One moment we're praying and believing it, it is the will of God to heal someone. Then they pass away and we say, “Well, they did receive their ultimate healing.”

(04:17):

Can we really have it both ways? Because it seems just a bit disingenuous to me.

Phil Taylor (04:23):

It is a little bit for us, too, if we skip that middle point like you're talking about, so that everything is this, whichever side, it's all just, “Oh, there's no point in praying you know, they're going to die” or whatever. Or we take this other side about, “No, they're not going to die. They're going to live and not die,” or whatever. And, and we never find the balance. We never find biblical balance, because again, I don't think this is just Phil and Ric's opinion about this. I think the scripture kind of indicates this. I think it's part of how we cope with that and how we kind of give God some room in there. You know, like, not that he needs us to justify things for him. But it's like, “Well, we prayed and, and you know, God never, he always honors his word, and so this is what's going to happen,” and then they die, and then we say, “Oh, well, yeah God took him on to heaven. That was the ultimate healing,” or whatever. Well, a minute ago you said, “God would never deny his word. We absolutely know he is going to be healed.”

(05:25):

And so again, we kind of play some, I think we, we need to be careful that we do not try to play games with a sovereign God who again, we know is a good and loving God. And Ric, we, we always start there. You know, I've preached…

Ric Shields (05:42):

We should always start there.

Phil Taylor (05:43):

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

I've preached funerals for infants or a stillborn baby or for a teenager. And you know, families, I always say it's just unnatural for parents to bury their children. It just ought not to be. It's a pain that is beyond anybody can fathom or manage. Yeah. And you and your family understand that.

(06:09):

I believe what happens, we start wanting to know, “Why did this happen?” And I would tell people, “Why is the wrong question.” We won't find an answer to that this side of eternity. The question we ask is, “What? What do we know for sure? And what do we do now?” And what we know for sure is that God, Oral (Roberts) used to say, “God's a good God. The devil's a bad devil.”

(06:32):

God is a good God. He loves us. He loves us so much that he gave his son to redeem us from death and from sin and from an eternity separated from God. And he, Jesus loves us so much. He's preparing a place for us so that we can be with him forever. We embrace that. This is what I know. People die. Bad things happen to good people. We live in a fallen world. The whole, even creation groans for redemption. We're waiting for something else.

(07:06):

There's something more in this thing. There's a bigger picture in all this that we can't see. So, we're waiting for what's even more. We just have to rest in that. And without that, without that knowledge of God's goodness, without the knowledge that, “Look, I don't know why, but I know that God causes all things to work together for good. I know I'm just going to trust him, and I'm going to find peace in it”. Somewhere in there I think we find that place.

(07:36):

It strikes me too that 2000 years ago, there was less, we didn't have medical science the way we do now and things. And so, the inevitability of suffering, the inevitability of sickness and death was a much more real thing for people than it is now. And now we can push it off, now we can hide ourselves from it. Even the death of our loved ones. Someone comes and takes them away, and all that's kind of out of sight or whatever. And so, it allows us, I think it's made it easier for us in the last 150 years or a hundred years in particular, to just kind of insist that, “Oh, no, suffering doesn't happen. Bad things shouldn't happen to God's people. God's put a hedge of protection around us. Everything's going to be okay. We're not going to die.” All those things when the reality is, again, we're human beings with a human body living in a fallen world. And stuff's going to happen. I got away from your original…

Ric Shields (08:34):

Well, you said this that's interesting. In the last 150 years, we've been having this hedge of protection and all these other things that have happened (really as a result of emerging theologies). And yet, I don't know of any 150 year olds that are alive today.

Phil Taylor (08:49):

Yeah.

Ric Shields (08:50):

All of that's been there. And still those people have all died. So, I think there was previously, as you said, 2000 years ago, a different sense. In fact, I think there was an anticipation of suffering, and I think there was an anticipation of death, and we seem to have missed that. I don't think I’ve missed it, per se, but I don't think we quite grasp it as we once did.

Phil Taylor (09:18):

Yeah, I agree. And again, and I don't want anyone to think that we're suggesting that we just go around accepting whatever comes, you know, not at all, and not pray for healing. No, I pray for healing. I pray for my own health and for others. And the Bible says, “If any you're sick, let them call for the elders of the church to anoint them with oil and the prayer of faith. Save the sick.” Again, all of this speaks again, back to that word about balance. That yes, we pray for healing, but we don't deny the reality of the possibility that we're going to go to heaven. So, let's make that a part of this theology as well.

(10:00):

And you can have both, I think, to examine the possibility that death might come. That's not doubt. That's another part to what God has prepared and provided for us through Jesus and through Calvary, that now I'm going to go be with him. Paul said, “To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.” So that's part of this plan, part of this process as well. It's another chapter in the journey. And just because life ends here, that's not the last chapter. There's another chapter. A new story begins when we stand in his presence.

(10:40):

And so, I think it's important that we encourage Christians to consider that. “Hey, you've got more chapters. This is just this immediate one.” And maybe it's a chapter that includes death. And let's say, too, and we may speak of it again here in a minute to kind of emphasize again what Paul said about, “we sorrow, but not as those who have no hope.” Nowhere would we suggest that this is not painful or, again, that we're not embracing sickness or suffering. Oh boy, I hope I can suffer. And yet at the same time, when we suffer for Jesus' sake that was kind of part of the deal. You know, we all take up the cross and follow Him.

Ric Shields (11:20):

I want to add on to something you said earlier as it relates to healing. I still pray and believe for people to be healed for multiple reasons. One, because I believe it's clear in scripture that we are to pray for one another that we should be healed.

Phil Taylor (11:35):

Healed. Right. That you may be healed.

Ric Shields (11:36):

Yeah. Number one. Number two, you and I have prayed for people that were healed. It wasn't that we had a gift of healing. God gave them the gift of healing, the people we were praying for. We have seen that. It's not something we can get away from. And yet at the same time, we have also seen people that we prayed for that were not healed, and that died. And I think we have to have the ability to look at both sides of that equally and be able to lead people in both of those situations.

Phil Taylor (12:09):

One of Carbondale’s former pastors, F.C. Cornell, who was a great Christian leader and pastored at Carbondale, and then became the district superintendent of Oklahoma District Assemblies of God for a period of time, and was just a, a marvelous preacher. A fiery Pentecostal preacher. And he was dying of cancer. And Brother McQueen had gone to see him and to pray with him. And Brother Cornell said, “Well, doc, I'm just going to tell you I can't be cheated.” He said, “You know, I've served the Lord all these years. I've been able to pastor and evangelize. I've you know, I've seen scores of people saved and healed and set free. And so, he said, it's been a wonderful life.” And he said, “And if God heals me, I'm going to go fishing. And if he doesn't, I'm going to go to heaven. And either one is just fine with me.” And I've told that story to a lot of people. I think that's pretty good. I

Ric Shields (13:05):

It's sweet, is how it comes to my mind. It's a sweet way to look at that.

Phil Taylor (13:08):

Yeah. I mean, I don't want to go fishing if the Lord decides to,

Ric Shields (13:12):

I don't want to go fishing. Even if he, yeah. One way or another. I don't care if it's fishing.

Phil Taylor (13:15):

Exactly. I'm not a fisherman, but yeah, I’d go to Braum’s, you know, <laugh>, eat some ice cream with Ric <laugh>.

Ric Shields (13:22):

That's good.

Phil Taylor (13:23):

But yeah. But I think, I think that's the balance. Let's pray and, and let's trust the Lord.

(13:29):

You know, I remember someone, the wife of a dear brother, and she was concerned. She said, “I just don't think he's got enough faith. You know, and, and I'm telling him to, to do all these things again.” It was kind of, let's get him to say more and confess more on all those things.

(13:47):

And I said, “You know what? I think he's got great faith because he's just kind of said, ‘You know what? I'm going to stay home and I'm going to trust the Lord.’” and kind of like Brother Cornell, if the Lord can heal me right here in this house, rather than going through all the chemo and all the kind of stuff or whatever. And so, his position was, “I'm going to pray and ask the Lord for healing, and if not, I'm going to go to heaven.”

(14:15):

And, either way, he is going to be okay. And so, I think we can all kind of take we take our own look at this, but again, back to that original question you asked about when they say, “Well, they received their ultimate healing.” Yeah. That’s exactly right. And they certainly did. I just want people to be at that place where they can say, “We believe that God's the healer and he's going to heal them. And either way, it may be an ultimate healing in the Lord's presence in heaven. Or it may be that they're physically going to be healed here, and we'll have more time. We're going to trust the Lord to sort that out.”

Ric Shields (14:53):

It's His to sort, not ours.

Phil Taylor (14:55):

Yeah. Because we don't have the wisdom. We really don't. We're limited by trying to figure this out. Okay, Lord, this is what's going to be best. Well, I, man, the presumption in that, that I know absolutely what's best for, for me or my family or whatever. That's kind of more than I'm willing to go for. So, I think we just have to say, “Alright, Lord, I'm going to trust you with this. At the same time, I know that there's an end here, but there's a new beginning in your presence.” And I said earlier, when you live in light of eternity, that's not depressing. You know he's put eternity in our hearts. The writer says so that's hopeful.

Ric Shields (15:43):

I wanted to look back again at Psalm 139 that says, “All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.” And then add to that Psalm 23, where the psalmist writes, “Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.”

(16:04):

Again, our days, God knows our days, and we just need to commit our days to him and allow him to work in us and through us. Give us strength for the day and help us to do all that we can, all that we're supposed to do, be all that we're supposed to be, and believe that he has that anointed, appointed, set aside, set apart for us to do his work.

Phil Taylor (16:28):

Absolutely.

Ric Shields (16:29):

A friend's wife died of cancer several years ago. He determined not to speak the word cancer around his wife or his children. They would not discuss the possibility of death. The only thing they would speak would be life and healing. And they passed along those same instructions to friends and asked them to abide strictly to those directions. And sometime later, the woman died. Neither the husband nor the children had a chance to say goodbye to her. Friends who said they were standing in faith, knew that there had been a weak link in the chain somewhere that allowed the devil to enter in and to compromise their confession. And it broke my heart. And I felt like they had had to have someone or somewhere to place blame so they could better understand the mystery of death. Is that good theology?

Phil Taylor (17:24):

No, obviously, obviously not. Because again, we're trying to, we're blaming someone. I just think we're giving too much power to an unknown person. You know, that weak link you’re talking about. I remember saying to people, “There’s a place in the scripture where it says that, ‘and Jesus did no mighty works there because of their unbelief.” People have taken that, and I believe erroneously, use that then to say, ‘Well see, unbelief. Not even Jesus could heal people when there's unbelief.” Well, I don't think that's at all.

(18:01):

 My response to that was, you know, unbelief is not kryptonite to Jesus. You know, he's superman and suddenly he's made weak because of kryptonite. He's the God of the universe. He spoke all things into existence. The fullness of the Godhead dwells in Jesus, in him were all things made, all things in Him hold together. So, if you're telling me that one person, that his plan and purpose is to heal someone, and because one person said, “I don't know, he looks pretty sick to me. I'm not sure she's going to make it.” God goes, “Oh, I'm, that's it. My hands are tied. That's it. There's nothing I can do.” Not that’s not the God that I serve. Not at all.

(18:44):

And I remember someone telling me a child that had died, and I said something about, “Well, you know, I don't think it's fair to just say, well, you know…” They had said, “Well, somebody just lacked faith.” And I said, “How can that be? I'll just, you know, I don't want to know a God that says, ‘Boy, I wanted to heal that little 7-year-old girl, but I just couldn't do it because somebody said the wrong thing somewhere.” That's not, that's not the loving God. I know the God that loves us so much that he brings no accusation against us. He redeems us. That's not him. You know? My goodness. So, yeah. That's, that's just not the case.

Ric Shields (19:23):

We know, we hear evangelists talk about the devil is like a roaring lion. “He's like, he's not really, he's an old toothless lion,” is what we hear. And then come to find out that devil is so powerful that in a very weak spot of a link, he can come in, boom, break the whole chain, and then somebody dies. We give him more power than we should.

Phil Taylor (19:44):

Yeah, absolutely. I agree with that. You know, you kind of said there that they tried to place blame so they could better understand the mystery of death.

Ric Shields (19:54):

Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>,

Phil Taylor (19:55):

And I think maybe that's one thing we kind of take away from our conversation today, is that, yeah, there's mystery behind this. We can't quite explain it all. You know, the passage in the Old Testament says, “The secret things belong to the Lord.” He's made known these other things to, to his sons. And, but the secret things belong to the Lord. And there's a mystery behind all this. And again, it kind of goes back again to just this the sovereignty of God and His purposes.

(20:25):

I was reading something that, a chapter in a book about John Chrysostom, who was a one of the ancient fathers who lived in the 300 AD, 340 AD or something like that. He was talking about (this writer said) “that the present has to be viewed in light of the end, and premature opinions as to the goodness of providence must be delayed until history reaches the conclusion that God has set for it.”

(20:52):

In other words, some things we're just going to have to wait till it's all said and done. And the purposes of God and the carrying out of the plans of God, plans that he's made for us are beyond what we can comprehend or what we can know. And so, boy, if you're, to anybody listening today that you're struggling with, you're facing a terminal illness or a diagnosis that's troubling to you, or you've got a family member or whatever. We're going to pray with you and we'll pray in agreement with you that God brings healing. But at the same time, there's the knowledge that you can place your life and your loved one in the hands of a loving, good, merciful gracious God, who not only brings healing here as part of the manifestation of his grace and kingdom now, but he also holds us and carries us, and brings us then into his very presence where he is prepared a place for us in his house where we can be with him forever.

(21:53):

So, I think that's how we have to view this, is that, yeah, I'm trusting the Lord and I'm not afraid to, yeah. Whether I live or whether I die. And that was the other thing that Paul said in Philippians, right? Whether I live or whether I die, “for me to live is Christ, to die is gain.” We quoted that. But whether I live or whether I die, I belong to him. I'm his. I think that's how we live our life.

Ric Shields (22:22):

I don't know about you, but I'm learning so much from this series about “Final Things.” I'm certain you have a friend or loved one who needs to hear some of the wisdom from Pastor Phil Taylor, the Pastor Emeritus of Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

(22:37):

I've never had the same guest share on three consecutive episodes, but Pastor Phil will join us again next week when we talk about “The Inevitability of Death.” We'll also take a look at what we can learn from Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, and we'll talk about the worst thing that can happen. I hope you'll join us, and I hope you'll invite someone you know who needs to hear our conversation.

(23:01):

Remember, you can drop me an email if you have questions or suggestions about this topic of final things. My address is info@DoorWays.cc.

(23:10):

Until next time, this is Ric Shields. Thanks for listening.