FINAL THINGS: Final Breaths

Vicki LaFave is an associate chaplain at two hospitals in Tulsa, OK. On this episode of FINAL THINGS: Final Breaths, Vicki shares:

"For some families, death is super hard to talk about. And it's like, 'If we don't talk about it, it won't happen. So, let's just don't ever have those conversations.'"

One thing I would say is, "Do not avoid those important conversations."

Transcript

FINAL THINGS: Final Breaths
GUEST: Rev. Vicki LaFave
Season 3, Episode 30

Ric Shields (00:00):

Over the past couple of months, we have been discussing the topic of final things. I interviewed Mike Shipman, a certified senior advisor, aftercare administrator, and benefits professional about advance planning, pre-planning, and some of the important things we can do to help our family and friends prior to and at the time of our death. After those episodes, I coined the phrase, "Planning ahead is planning to help."

(00:26):

I spoke with Dr. Ed Rylander, a family practice physician, about some of the difficult conversations medical professionals have with their patients. We also discussed hospice and the services it provides for the patients and their families.

(00:40):

Pastor Phil Taylor and I spoke about what the Bible says about death and dying. Two of our three episodes were about “The Inevitability of Suffering” and “The Inevitability of Death.”

(00:52):

Next week I'll interview Jack Hayhurst, the owner and director of Hayhurst Funeral Home in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. You'll hear the heart of a man who cares for people and who makes every effort to provide excellent service to those he serves.

(01:06):

Today I'm speaking with my friend Vicki LaFave, an ordained minister with the DoorWays® Ministry Network since 2020. Vicki graduated from Oklahoma State University with a degree in human development and family science. She currently serves as an associate chaplain at both Hillcrest Medical Center and the OSU Medical Center in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And that's in addition to being a wife, a mother of three adult daughters, and a grandmother of six.

(01:33):

I'm Ric Shields, your host. Thank you for joining us on the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast.

(01:47):

Vicki, I know you're a busy lady, and I really do appreciate you taking the time to join us today.

Vicki LaFave (01:52):

Thank you, Ric. I appreciate this opportunity to share. Chaplaincy has become an inspiring career for me where I've learned and enjoyed as a means of ministry. I feel very honored that God has been willing to use me in this capacity and to further a ministry in my life.

Ric Shields (02:10):

I love chaplaincy. I served as a hospice chaplain for a brief season, and currently I'm serving as a volunteer chaplain at a prison. Both very opposite things, one from another. But I know this; being a chaplain was not one of those goals you had probably since you were a young woman, graduated from high school or college. So, what's the short story of how you happened to become a chaplain?

Vicki LaFave (02:33):

Well, after about I guess it was about 10 years ago, I decided to go back to school and take some courses, and through that I did an internship at what's called the Tristesse Grief Center here in Tulsa. And not really as realizing at that point that this would further benefit me. I was able to get some good experience working with people who are walking through a lot of loss and a lot of grief.

(02:57):

During that time, I also was meeting with a lady sharing about her hospice organization, and so I was curious about that too. So inquired a little bit about volunteering with them to see if that might be something I could do further. And so, during some of our visits after I had made visits to some of the clients, she just happened to mention chaplaincy and said, “You know, I think this would be good.” W with my background, I had been in ministry for a while, and with that background and with the hospice, and all the training, she felt like chaplaincy was something I should look into. She gave me the website. I went there. I went and visited and talked to the director and decided to do the internship and just to once again, try it out to see if it's something I might be interested in. And then went on to residency and decided that this was a good place for me. It was a way to minister in a different setting. And it just seemed to be a, a real good fit for me in the helps and ministry path.

Ric Shields (03:53):

So, you're currently a hospital chaplain, is that correct?

Vicki LaFave (03:55):

That's correct.

Ric Shields (03:56):

And what is the role really? I suppose there's multiple roles, but what do you see as your role as a hospital chaplain?

Vicki LaFave (04:03):

Well, you're right. Our role as a hospital chaplain is multifaceted. First of all, we are part of the interdisciplinary team. One of the things that impressed me is that we are just as respected in that group as the doctors, the nurses, the other healthcare workers. We have a vital role according to them and as well as the patients. And so, what we actually do is we go and we provide pastoral care to patients and their families as well as to the staff. So as part of that healthcare team, we offer comfort and compassion to those who are dealing with those tough health situations.

(04:40):

Chaplains also can alleviate fear and stress by providing emotional care. One thing we do not do is we do not go to evangelize or witness according to our own faith practices. So, we never walk in with our own agenda. Basically, we walk in, sometimes the nurse will request our visit. They see that the patient is kind of weary or whatever, upset about something, and they ask for us to come. But oftentimes, the patients are the ones who ask for us to come. And so, we walk in and let them create the dialogue. So, they typically will guide that visit instead of us walking in to with all the questions.

Ric Shields (05:16):

Now, do you ever have an opportunity also then to minister to some of the staff members? Do they ever seek you out and say, “I could speak, I need some help?

Vicki LaFave (05:24):

Yes, absolutely. And that is one thing that we have done a whole lot this last year. We often have a staff person who gets sick and then they pass. And so, in that department, there's a lot of grief taking place. They may have worked with that particular employee for five or six years or more, and so they have to carry on their daily work, but that person that's not sitting there anymore is, that has affected them. So, we have actually done some personal things, but we've also done some group grief sessions with them, brought them in. Let’s talk about this employee. Let's share about how wonderful she was and how she affected your life on the job and outside. And so that's one major thing we do.

(06:04):

Also, when we go and there's, there could be a patient who was in the hospital for a week or more, and some of those staff people got really close to them. And so, when they pass, that's hard on them as well. It's not just another number, another patient, but that's a, a kind of a personal and emotional situation for them too. And so, we're able to go there even when they have something in their own family, some of their managers will say, “Hey, this person is going through a tough time in their personal life. Could you come and visit with them?” So yeah, we do. We minister to the staff as well.

Ric Shields (06:36):

I suppose that we're reminded in those times of our own mortality. And when you are working with people that are ill and then people who pass, that's no small thing. It does speak to us and say, “I'm not younger than that person, or I'm not that much older than that person.”

Vicki LaFave (06:55):

Right, right.

Ric Shields (06:56):

You said that the goal is not to go and do evangelism. That means that there could be people there that have a different faith tradition than you. How do you handle that? Somebody believes something different than you, and that's not to say that they're an atheist and you're a Christian, but you know, they could have a different faith tradition. Still, those can be blocks, hills to overcome little, little stumbling blocks. How do you handle that?

Vicki LaFave (07:20):

Well, that's the curious thing. When I first went through the training, I was thinking, what are they trying to do? Am I, they trying to water down what I believe, but make it generic or what? But actually, what chaplains are trained to do is to be prepared to offer compassion and care for people of all faith backgrounds.

(07:39):

So sometimes there's patients who have very specific practices, faith practices, rituals, whatever. And they may say, “Hey, do you have a Roman Catholic priest?” Some people are Catholic, and they, they're fine with anyone praying for them. But some, when they're a Roman Catholic, they want a Roman Catholic priest, or they may want a Jewish rabbi, or there may be other, we have Muslim patients and employees as well.

(08:00):

So, depending on the comfort level and the, the practice that they usually engage in, sometimes we're just fine as, as whatever faith practice we are, they have respect that, and they just let us come and, and offer that compassion and comfort. But a lot of times they really want that other person. And so if they don't have their own priest that they can call, then we have a list of people that we can call in to come and say, we have a specific patient who needs this specific request, whether it be last rites, whether it be communion, baptism for babies, whatever. And so, we have those other individuals that are signed on with us that will come for those specific needs.

Ric Shields (08:37):

I recall one time that there was a patient that was in the hospital that was on our hospice service. And I went to visit with him and he asked me some questions and made it very clear that the two of us saw things completely differently. Though he had a Christian faith background, but we saw things completely differently and he asked me to leave. Have you ever had anyone ask you to leave?

Vicki LaFave (09:06):

I don't believe I have.

Ric Shields (09:08):

You must be nicer than me.

Vicki LaFave (09:10):

Well, usually we go in, we introduce ourselves kind of give a reason why we're there, whether we're just checking in on them, just seeing if there's anything we can offer for them. And there's been a few times when someone has just said, “Nope, I'm good.” Particularly when people are getting ready to have a baby, they're like, “Nope, I don't need prayer.” And I'm going, “Well, you might.” But most of the time people are fairly polite. They're not really hateful about it. I haven't really had anyone that's just told me to leave.

(09:38):

I've had some real tough questions, like, “You tell me why God took my brother.” You know, those kinds of things. But I know that that's part of their grief process. And but I did have one lady say, “Nope, I'm good. I don't need anything. I don't believe in God. And if I did, I'd ask my sister to pray for me.” And I was like, okay. I just went on to ask her a few more questions. I mean the choice is to go, “Okay. Bye.” Or you can say, "Well, is there anything else? Any other needs to you that you might have?"

(10:05):

And so, this particular lady, I just felt compelled the next day when I was there to go back and just check on her. And that day she was really receptive to my visit, and I believe it was because I didn't try to push anything on her. I respected what she had to say, and I took her where she was at, and we talked about other things, not the spiritual aspect of it, but just anything else. And she ended up opening up and sharing things about her family and other things that she was concerned with. So, yeah.

Ric Shields (10:32):

Yeah, that's good. Do you ever get resistance from a family member? Let's say a patient has welcomed you in to talk to them and pray with them, but family members maybe they're not so happy about that.

Vicki LaFave (10:43):

Yeah. And the same thing. And I, that's one that's the biggest thing is as a chaplain, we are also trained to, my former director, Ron Nofsinger, used to say that as a chaplain, we are the least anxious person in the room. So, when we walk in, we're supposed to walk in with calmness. And so, no matter what we face as we walk in, like you said, whether it's the patient, the family member, we have to kind of read the room a little bit, read where they're coming from.

(11:09):

And so, depending on who we're talking to now, like I said, most of the time we are called to that room. So, there has been a request. But many times, like Code Blues, we always go, and CMOs, we always go. And so there, yeah, there have been sometimes where people were not as accepting of our being there. If they're the only one in the room, we absolutely, we have to respect that and go out. But if there have been times when there have been people who really wanted you there, but there were a few that really did not want you there. Focus on those that need your help and then go on your way.

Ric Shields (11:42):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields, and we are addressing the topic of Final Things. Today we're talking about our Final Breaths. I'm joined in this episode with my friend Vicki LaFave, who serves as an associate chaplain of two hospitals in the Tulsa area.

(11:58):

Now, Vicki, I assume you've been present when a patient died. Can you tell us what that's like?

Vicki LaFave (12:04):

Yeah, I'll try. <Laugh>. It's a little, it's been a little curious for me over the last five years to place what that feels like. In the beginning it was a little awkward. I had been around a few people in church ministry when they had passed or had just passed, so it wasn't totally foreign to me. But there's two things that happen that I have kind of focused in on that have happened.

(12:26):

One is, when I am in this situation, most of the time, I don't know this person. They are a patient in the hospital. I may have seen them before the end of life, or I may not have. And so, when I can focus on the job as a chaplain, then I am, can find myself somewhat neutral. I focus on being with a family, offering compassion and comfort to them. And which is why I am usually called to a death.

(12:52):

But there's also been times where someone, I remember one time the lady's husband had just passed, her son was coming up and she said, “Would you please sit with him so I can go meet my son downstairs?” And so, I'm sitting there, and this was pretty early on, and sitting there and it just hit me like, I'm sitting in this room with this body of a man that I don't even know, and I'm still kind of together, like, this isn't affecting me like I thought it would. And so that, I'm not sure where that comes from, but because in the past I would've thought that would've been a real frightening thing for me.

(13:27):

The other side is when I'm with a family who especially a strong Christian family or of any faith really, when they, when they really have their strength and their faith and they're able to walk through the death of a family member, that to me kind of becomes like a sacred moment because there's so much peace and so much calmness.

(13:51):

So, I don't know, it's just a totally different thing both times. I believe my position is proper as far as just doing the job of a chaplain. But there's also times when I feel a little more engaged when I see the calmness and the peace that a family has about that patient.

Ric Shields (14:09):

I found some of the deaths that I attended when I was a hospice chaplain especially, that they seem to be very holy moments,

Vicki LaFave (14:17):

Right.

Ric Shields (14:18):

That it's nothing you take lightly and you have an opportunity, especially when you're invited to be there by the family because of the ministry that you've been performing with them over the period of several days or weeks. And they invite you into that moment. I have found them to be very, very holy and impactful moments for me.

(14:40):

Vicki, do you ever have occasions where people ask you to pray for their mother or their father or whomever they ask you to pray for them to die?

Vicki LaFave (14:50):

You know, I don't really know that I have, I know that there's been people who've said that they just want to die. You know, they've expressed that to me. I don't believe I've ever had a family member ask that. I also don't believe I've ever prayed for them not to die.

(15:05):

So, it's a real interesting place to be when someone is about to die and, you know, they're suffering greatly. My prayer is usually for peace in their mind, their body, their spirit, for them to walk through this end of life with an easy transition.

(15:23):

I just, I guess when somebody asks that, I feel like I can't take responsibility for trying to change the outcome, the situation they're in. I believe in prayer. I believe in miracles. I believe God can do that. But in that moment, I don't feel the pressure, but I feel like they have some pressure that they've got to ask me to take care of this for them. And please, please pray I'll die, or please pray that I won't die or that my family member won't.

(15:50):

So, it's, it's kind of an it's an interesting thing, but I don't think I've ever actually had to pray or been asked to pray for someone to die, and I don't know that I could.

Ric Shields (15:59):

Your experience and mine are different. I have had the opportunities on several occasions where I was asked to pray with a patient as they were trying to transition, and they seemed to be having a difficult time. Other times when I felt as if the Lord was speaking to me to pray for people that they would die, and they did.

(16:18):

In fact, I can remember several instances of that happening when I actually, when I was serving the hospice. Jokingly, the sometimes the staff would refer me as “Dr. Death” because when they had a patient that was having a difficult time transitioning, it was not unusual that they would call and say, “Can you come and pray with them?” And I can't say that every time I prayed with them that they died, but it was often enough that I did get a different moniker than I normally would've had <laugh>. That's for certain.

Vicki LaFave (16:46):

Yeah, that's right. I do remember when my dad was, he was intubated and in his very last hours and stuff, and I stayed with him one night, and I just remember speaking to him and telling him, “Hey, it's okay. It's okay to let go. It's okay. Mom will be fine.” You know, and just reassuring him that it's okay. Yeah.

(17:04):

And so, I didn't pray that, but I do, kind of like what you said, I just pray, God, please take them peacefully. You know, let it happen. Let it not in some, some sort of words, let it not be lengthy. Let it not be a, a big struggle. Let them, you know, when they're at that point, let this be a peaceful transition.

Ric Shields (17:23):

Has serving as a chaplain had an impact on your view of the afterlife?

Vicki LaFave (17:27):

That's a hard question. At least It's hard for me to answer. I know it has, but I guess the hard thing is putting it into words. I know that as a young adult or child and a young adult, I believed in the afterlife. I knew it was the real thing. But as I've heard many say, I was hoping that it was something that was a little bit farther away, that I would grow up, get married, have kids, do some things I want to do, and then someday there would be the afterlife. And so, I didn't really focus on it very much.

(17:56):

Yes, I focused on living that type of life, the Christian life, to where I would be able to go to heaven one day. But as far as really digging into what that meant, it, this has definitely done more for me in that regard.

(18:10):

I guess after watching different people go through this and different families go through it, sometimes it's very hard. I mean, a very hard death, very abrupt situation, harder to handle than one that's an older person who's been ill for a long time and all that. And you watch that. And, but just something about being there.

(18:31):

I relate it a little bit to, like a birth. I've been with my daughter, and when she's birthed, I've actually been in the room and she's birthed two of her children. And so, you go from not having life to experiencing this life coming out and what that looks like was super sacred moment. But by the same token, I feel like the death can pass that same way in a real sacred space. And so, because of that, it's made me reflect more about the afterlife of the passing of that baton.

(19:04):

Like, here's this life, who, who has lived whatever length of time it has, but now it's gone. The body's still there, but there's something that I have felt and sensed, and it brings me to the afterlife. It brings me to what would I do in the end? What would I want. I, I don't know that it makes me think a whole lot more about what the afterlife is, but it just makes me more aware that we are not in control of when that moment will take place. But when it does that, it's okay. It's like I've had more of a comfortable feeling with it. This is part of life.

Ric Shields (19:39):

And as we talk, I begin to realize the big difference there is between a hospital chaplain who is there in an acute care situation typically, and a hospice chaplain where a patient has been advised that their days are coming to an end and that they're being cared for receiving palliative care, comfort care. And in some degree, or in some ways, perhaps they're more prepared for that than what they would be in the acute care situation when death happens. And it may not have been so anticipated. So, I can see there's a big difference.

(20:13):

I would say that I have had a chance to see patients as they passed and to see some of the expressions on their faces, to hear some of the words they were saying, some of the things that were just so evident. And I began as a hospice chaplain to realize that the afterlife is more real than I perhaps had ever imagined.

Vicki LaFave (20:37):

Right.

(20:38):

Any final words you'd like to share with our listeners to help them know how to walk the final steps of this life?

(20:44):

Wow. And like you said, we don't ever know. When you do have time to think about it I think for all of us, no matter what age we are, we need to prepare for our end-of-life care. We need to like I talked about,

(20:56):

Well, I'm not sure if I talked about advanced directives. That's one thing that we do as chaplains also, we go to help people fill out their advanced directives so that is writing down your wishes, what you want for your healthcare. If you were unable to do it at the very end and, and incapable of making those decisions, you can write it out ahead of time so that you get to have a part in your end-of-life care. And so, writing out those things, the desires for your healthcare, for your living conditions.

(21:22):

One thing I feel like for some families, I know death is super hard to talk about, and it's like, if we don't talk about it, it won't happen. So, let's just don't ever have those conversations. And so, my one thing would be to say, not to avoid those important conversations.

(21:38):

 Sometimes we've walked through with people who they know it's the very end of life, and we help them to talk about it, to talk about some of their special memories, even depending on how long they have. Maybe make a memory book or write out some letters to people that, some special words that you want to leave them with. Let requests be known like there's something you've always wanted to do that's possible for you to do. Try to make that happen. This way it kind of helps people have a little bit of control. They feel like there's a little bit of control that they have towards the end of their journey, and they get to have a say in what happens. And that kind of gives them a little bit of calmness. So, they relax a little bit that, “Hey, I'm not totally out of control here. I've, I've got something to say about this.” And they get to leave whatever it is that's important to them, to their families.

Ric Shields (22:26):

Death does not come neatly packaged. We're not born with a label that identifies our expiration date. God knows it, and he has numbered all of our days. In the English Standard Version of the Bible, Hebrews 9:27 reads like this, “It is appointed for man to die once and after that comes judgment.” The New International Version says it a bit differently. “People are destined to die once and after that to face judgment.” Regardless of whether you see it as your appointment or as your destiny. There are a finite number of days for each of us, and none of us knows precisely when it'll be our time to die.

(23:07):

And it isn't only about when our days finally end in this life. The Hebrews passage also declares that after our death, we will face judgment. The actions of our lives won't be placed on a scale to figure out if we did more good things than bad things, and maybe three really, really good things will cancel out one really bad thing. That’s not how it will work.

(23:28):

In the end, we'll be judged on whether we placed our faith in Christ Jesus. It's what Romans 10, 9-10 says. “If you declare with your mouth Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is by your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.”

(23:56):

That's why I share the “Salvation Poem” with you. It's a simple prayer written by my friend Matthew McPherson. And when you not only say it, but believe it to be true, you will be born again and be a member of God's family. It goes like this, 

“Jesus, you died upon a cross
and rose again to save the lost.
Forgive me now of all my sin,
come be my savior, Lord and friend.
Change my life and make it new.
And help me Lord, to live for you.”

(24:32):

It really is that simple. If you'd like more information about what it means to follow after Jesus, go online to salvation poem.com for free resources.

(24:43):

On our next episode, I'll chat with Jack Hayhurst, the owner and director of Hayhurst Funeral Home in Broken Arrow, Oklahoma. You're going to hear the heart of a man who cares for people and does everything that he and his staff can do to help honor your loved one and help you in a difficult situation. I hope you'll join us.

(25:04):

You can drop me an email if you have questions or suggestions about this topic of final things. My address is info@doorways.cc.

(25:12):

Until next time, this is Ric Shields. Thanks for listening.