FINAL THINGS: Grief and Loss

Karol Miller understands grief because of how it has impacted her life. On this episode, we share about grief and loss and how hope can shape the grieving process. We also discuss the feelings of loneliness and sadness that often accompany grief, as well as the anger and regret that can arise. Join us as we point to the importance of turning to God for help and comfort during the grieving process.

Transcript

FINAL THINGS: Grief & Loss
Guest: Karol Miller
Season 3, Episode 32

Ric Shields (00:00):

For the past two months, we've talked on this podcast about things people don't want to talk about. Topics like pre-planning your estate, how to best structure your property and resources before your death. We've discussed difficult conversations that physicians have with terminally ill patients, hospice care, the inevitability of suffering and death, and what happens when we take our final breath. We've spoken about planning for your funeral or memorial service. It's really been a bit of a crash course on the topic of final things.

(00:34):

But there's another topic we haven't discussed. I've seen it expressed in the hearts and lives of scores of people over the years having served as a hospice chaplain and a pastoral staff member. I actually thought I knew quite a lot about it, but the truth is I came to realize I had no idea of the gravity and the grip of grief until our daughter-in-law. Blair died tragically in December 2019, just a few days before Christmas.

(01:03):

My name is Ric Shields. Thanks for joining us on this episode of the Doorways Ministry Network podcast.

(01:19):

I didn't have a clue about how emotions and time and reality could morph into something completely unrecognizable. I had experienced times of depression in my life, but after Blair's death, I don't remember it ever being so hard to just wake up every morning with sorrow I couldn't shake off and questions for which I would never find answers.

(01:43):

And it wasn't only me who was affected by her death. Obviously, our son took the full force of the traumatic loss. I'd never before had the occasion to hold him. While he sobbed uncontrollably, his broken heart broke mine too. My wife and daughter were also traumatized, and at times they were inconsolable. Three months after passing when I was pretty certain we were turning a corner in our grief, we received some unsettling news and it was like we started the process all over again and again and again.

(02:19):

I'd heard it explained before, but until you experience it, there's no way to understand it. That's exactly how grief works. You find yourself experiencing it again and again and again.

(02:31):

I don't know of anyone who has experienced more grief than today's guest. Within a short time, Karol Miller lost a family member who took his own life. Her mother-in-law died on the way to that funeral. By the way, her husband died just six weeks after being diagnosed with an aggressive cancer. Her sister died unexpectedly. Her brother died and one of her sons was killed during an encounter with a police officer.

(02:57):

For the past 10 years, she has facilitated grief share classes at her church and has found it to be a part of her healing process. That's not to say she's cured of her grief, not at all, but she has developed important tools to help address her grief and loss.

(03:14):

Karol and her husband Jim are credentialed ministers with a DoorWays® Ministry Network and I'm proud to call them my friends. Thank you, Karol, for helping us today as we address this topic of grief and loss.

(03:26):

It seems to me that everyone may experience grief at some point in their life and, and I think that's pretty obvious, but do you think it's normal for Christian believers to experience grief? I mean, doesn't First Thessalonians 4: 13 instruct us to not grieve “like the rest of mankind who have no hope?”

Karol Miller (03:44):

Yes, it does. Have you experienced loss? Were you able to not grieve? We do cry. We do feel loss. We feel hopeless. We feel lonely. We feel sad. And we look at that scripture and we go, what's the difference? What's, what's the difference between what I feel and my neighbor who doesn't know the Lord feels?

(04:05):

Well? The answer is, I'm going to see my husband again. I am going to see my son again. I'm going to see my sisters and my brothers and my mom and my dad, and that gives me hope.

(04:21):

Am I still going to cry? Yeah. Do I cry for them? No, they're fine. You know who I cry for? I cry for me. I'm the one that's alone. I'm the one that doesn't have a bed partner anymore. I'm the one who doesn't have somebody to talk to when I'm awake at three in the morning. I grieve for me.

(04:41):

I don't know how else to explain the difference, except I know there's a tomorrow with the person I've loved.

Ric Shields (04:47):

I agree. I think it's that sense of hope that we have, that knowledge of hope that we have that makes our grieving difference. I mean, Jesus also said in Matthew chapter five, “blessed are they who mourn for they shall be comforted.” So, it's obvious that there's a balance there in our grief, and both Jesus and Paul address that.

(05:08):

I like to tell people also that when Jesus says, “blessed are they who mourn for they should be comforted,” it encourages us then, I believe, if we hope to find comfort in our grief, that we mourn and we have healthy mourning. And when we do, we find the comfort of the Holy Spirit in that. I don't think it's something we have to abandon our grief or our mourning or our loss, but we do balance it with the hope that we have for the future.

Karol Miller (05:35):

On the other side of that coin sometimes when you're a Christian and you read that you think you're not allowed to mourn at all. So, you kind of get that stiff upper lip and you look like everything is okay. So, people don't really come to comfort you because you're fine. That denies us the comfort of other people, which the Lord provides for us.

Ric Shields (05:59):

Sometimes we do that though because we're sick of people saying, “how are you doing? How are you doing?” How do you think I'm doing? Really?

Karol Miller (06:06):

Well, I found that answer. I tell you what, it's, I learned this, but I can't tell you how. "You know Ric, today I am fine. Don't ask me in an hour. I might not be, or that's the truth. Right now, I'm not so hot. Yeah, but ask me again after supper. I might be fine once I've had a sandwich. I don’t know. Because it comes and goes."

Ric Shields (06:27):

In 1969, Elisabeth Kübler-Ross authored a book called, “On Death and Dying.” And while she wrote it from a perspective of how patients may respond to a terminal illness, the five stages of grief she identified were adopted by many within the broader scope of grief and loss as it relates to a loved one. In recent years, her work has been criticized. People have said it's too linear, it's too simplified, it's too ethnocentric. I still think it was an important work on what at the time was almost considered a taboo subject. 

Elisabeth Kübler-Ross identified five stages of the grieving process. Perhaps it'd be helpful for us to consider those.

Karol Miller (07:09):

First, I want to tell you, my mom died when I was 24, and that's about the time Elisabeth Kübler-Ross was writing her books. She has written several, not just this one. And so, I researched a lot because I was lost. I did not know. So, I'm very familiar with her work on the stages. Absolutely, she has accurately identified them.

(07:36):

The issue is they're not a ladder that you climb. They're not one following another. I think of them as a revolving door with no exit. You're whipping around through denial or anger or depression or maybe bargaining, maybe even acceptance. And guess what? You get to start all over again. You could be an acceptance and all of a sudden something will trigger and you will fall back into denial or anger. It's, it's a crazy way. It works crazy, but you're going to go through them a lot and often

Ric Shields (08:14):

And an important thing, I think, to help people realize that it is not linear. And that's, I think that's a very imp a critical component to this. Help people realize we may experience these again and again and not even in order. They can be completely out of order.

Karol Miller (08:30):

Oh, totally.

Ric Shields (08:30):

But we will certainly experience them again and again.

(08:34):

Loneliness and sadness seem to be major emotions that people face following the loss of a loved one. Is that a common experience among those who grieve?

Karol Miller (08:44):

I would say 99.9% of people experience loneliness, not because there's not somebody around them, but because they, they, nobody can experience the loss of your own husband or your son or a daughter-in-law. But you so that loneliness is very, very personal, even in a crowd.

(09:07):

Have you ever gone to church, which is very difficult after a death and you're sitting there in a crowd of 300 and it's like there's not a soul around you because the only thing you can feel is the loss of your person.

Ric Shields (09:22):

Whether it's true or not, it feels like all eyes are on me and I've got nothing to give back. 

Karol Miller (09:30):

And I sit in the front row and sometimes I'm sitting in the front row sobbing and thinking, oh my gosh, they can, they can't see my face, but they can see my body. It

Ric Shields (09:42):

They think, wow, this sermon is really impacting her. This is amazing.

Karol Miller (09:46):

<Laugh>.

Ric Shields (09:47):

And the truth is, we can't even hear it. We don't even know what's being said. We couldn't go home and repeat it if we tried.

Karol Miller (09:53):

Not a bit.

Ric Shields (09:54):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields and we are addressing the topic of “FINAL THINGS: Grief and Loss” with my longtime friend Karol Miller. If someone can understand this topic, it's Karol. She lost multiple family members over a brief period of time, and now she works to help others address their grief and loss.

(10:15):

One of the many issues that bereaved people face is anger. You know that it has many faces and can be directed in many different directions. How can we appropriately address this issue of anger, especially as it's related to grief?

Karol Miller (10:30):

Ric, I don't know how to answer that question. I know I've been there, but I have to say, it comes from expectations. “Father, how could you allow this to happen? How could you take my husband? What am I going to do now? Where's the money going to come from? How am I going to eat? Do I have to go live with a kid? I don't want to live with my kid's father.” So, these expectations that I have, they actually are the source of the anger is I expected something, I didn't get it, or I did not expect that death. And guess what? He died anyway. We prayed, “Father, heal.” You know what? It didn't happen the way I wanted it to happen,

(11:20):

But my husband was very good at walking you through this to handle the anger part because he said, “you know, if the Lord heals me right here, I'm a winner. If I go home to heaven, I'm a winner. How can I lose?” How can you be angry when you know what's coming is better than what you're living through?

(11:44):

Whether it's death, whether it's an accident, whether it's divorce, whether it's, am I going to spend my lifetime in a nursing home? Whether it's blame the doctor who did something crazy wrong, I'm going to sue his arms off because he killed my whoever. Those are anger issues we have to deal with. So, I had to learn to deal with those.

(12:10):

And I learned this way through scripture to go to James. The anger of man never ever works the righteousness of God. I had to make a decision. Do I want to be angry or do I want to be righteous? If God is the revenger, can I be a good revenger? Oh, I want to be. My other place for anger is I go to Psalms 139 verses 15 and 16. This was my saving.

(12:41):

Psalms 139 says, my loose translation, “God keeps the scrapbook on us.” Ric, he has one on you. He has one on me. He had one on Curt. And you know what? He knew what day Curt was going to die. God had a day for Curt. His day came. So, the book that God kept on Curt closed.

(13:01):

And my daughter who is an author, she said to me, she said, “Mom, daddy's book is closed. His chapter, his whole book is done, but you have chapters left. Your book is not closed yet. So, daddy's chapter with you in your book was very, very long.”

(13:19):

We were married 52 years, Ric. That's a long, long lifetime. I never knew anything else, but I had more chapters to live. I was able to embrace the scripture and know that I had more to do for the Lord. That is how I handled my anger. I don't know how to help anybody else except to say God's a better revenger than you are.

Ric Shields (13:46):

There are many people, Karol, who live with regret for the things that are left unsaid, things that are left undone, opportunities that have not been embraced. I think regret is a common emotion for bereaved family or friends. Do you agree?

Karol Miller (14:01):

Absolutely. There is a list of “should” and “should nots” that we address when somebody dies. I should have got a second opinion. I should have gathered the money up and paid for more chemotherapy. I should not have got a housekeeper instead of cleaning up myself and get somebody else to care for my husband. The that list of “shoulds,” we can't, we can't do anything about those. So, in the should list of life, I can't change the past. And when someone has cancer that you love, advice comes out of the woodwork. Oh, it's like every person that you've ever met in your life or a stranger in the grocery store is going to tell you what you need to do. And when you're struggling in this position with your own self, what am I supposed to do? All of that compounds.

(15:03):

And actually, after the death creates regrets. Should I have listened to them? Should I have done that? And we can't change the past. So, we have to take Paul's advice “forgetting those things which are before behind us, press on toward the mark.” But I still have those regrets. So that's why I go to the cross. “Father, I, I can't, I can't erase this in my mind. I can't let these go by myself. I need your help, father cleanse my mind of the regrets. Let me just accept where I am. One day at a time, one step at a time. I'm going to keep heading toward you.”

Ric Shields (15:47):

You know, God gets a pretty bad rap much of the time. I know people who have screamed at God, people who have turned away from God. In the Bible Job's wife said to him, “why don’t you just curse God and die?” So, what are some healthy steps we can take as we look to him for answers to the tough questions after the death of a loved one?

Karol Miller (16:10):

Well, my first answer to that is, anybody suffering? Great. Go read the Psalms. Psalms will tell you the greatness of God. And you'll find out it's a big boy. He can handle how you're feeling. Trust me. He can handle how you're feeling. And you have to know feelings are fickle. One day you can feel great. The next day you feel like dooo. And you don't even know why our feelings are fickle, but here's what we do with them. You go to God.

(16:38):

I can remember I had to deal with how I was feeling over my loss. I was so nowhere. And a good counselor gave me advice. She said, take 15 minutes and just tell God everything you're feeling. So, I walked a circle in my house and I started telling God everything that I had lost.

(17:01):

Number one, I lost a husband. Number two, I lost a bed companion. Number three, I lost somebody to make my coffee in the morning. I lost somebody to mow the lot yard. I lost somebody when I'm paying bills. And I don't know which one to do to tell me, well do this and do that because I'm a detail person. He was a long-range planner. He could see a year from now. I'm at the moment. I lost that guy. I lost the guy. What do you do in the fall when you're supposed to, when a rise your sprinkler system?

(17:39):

And I spent 15 minutes telling the Lord everything that I had lost in this man, it was unbelievably helpful for me because I didn't have to do it twice. He heard me. So that was, that was good for me. The second part of that is, I'm part of a church family that I've been part of for 40 years.

(18:03):

Everybody knew me. When Curt died, I had a cadre of men who were there to help me if I needed a mechanic or a plumber or a yard guy. They were there. As a woman, you of course don't know this Ric, but we don't have, we don't think the way men do. And God did not make us to be alone. We needed the man's half of the brain. And I could wander my little self down to my church, walk into the pastor's office and go I heard I'm supposed to do this. I don't know how. Guys, what's the answer? I got one answer from this guy with all the <laugh>, the mechanical directions. Get the whatever and the hammer and the squeezer thing and do this. And the other pastor said, “I hire mine done,” and handed me a business card. <Laugh>.

(18:56):

That's the kind of support I had. But giving my feelings to the Lord and going to a resource that I had no power.

Ric Shields (19:08):

<Laugh>, Let me ask you another question here. I'm just full of questions for you. Again, should I consider you an expert? I don't think any of us want to be considered a grief expert.

Karol Miller (19:16):

No sir.

Ric Shields (19:18):

But we have certainly experienced it and have an understanding of it from at least our perspective. So, I look to you as one who's walked this path and has gone before us and can help us. So, I'm certain it's different for one person than, than it is for another. How long does it take for someone to get through their grief?

Karol Miller (19:38):

I love you Ric Shields. You're not going to get through it. You're going to learn to live with it. I promise. I'm not an expert, but I am experienced and according to your personality, how long it'll take.

(19:54):

I had a grandson that committed suicide on his 21st birthday and I was talking to his father five years later, no, maybe 10 years later, after my husband died. And I was asking him, you know, how long does it take for this pain to go away? And he said, “Mom, it takes about five years to be able to remember it without the unbelievable emotion.” And I thought five years. And then I heard the same thing in the grief share programs takes about five years for a normal death.

(20:29):

What's a normal death? Somebody's gotten old. They've kind of aged out of this world. They've finished everything they need to finish. That's a normal death illness. Having somebody die of cancer might be common. Maybe an accident, a car accident. Suicide is not typical. So, the type of death is going to determine how long it takes.

(20:57):

Second thing, how old was the dying person? Did you have a miscarriage? You and I both know someone that did that was very difficult. Was it a young infant, three or four months old from maybe a heart defect? That's very difficult. Young person. Motorcycle accident. Unbelievably difficult. You get that knock on your door at 2:00 in the morning. Midlife - 45, 50, have a heart attack. Or old. Curt was 72. Was he old enough for me? No. But in the world scheme of things, he was old enough to go ahead and die and go onto his maker.

(21:37):

The other factor in how long it takes, how old is the griever? Very young. You've never had experience with death. It can be horrendous. Midlife, 45, 50, maybe even 60. You've got a little more experience. You know, death happens. Nobody gets out alive. Or you're in your 70’s or 80’s and you're at the end of life. You understand how it works. It's much easier. How long does it take? Average? Five years.

(22:11):

Yeah. You don't get over it. You learn to live with it. It changes you. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. My daughter said to me one time, not to interrupt you. She says, “Mom, you're different. I need my old mom back.” And I just looked at her and I said, “Honey, that mom is gone.”

(22:30):

Because death changes you.

Ric Shields (22:34):

There's silence here. Not because of some technical difficulty, but we both realize the gravity of what you just said, that death changes us and, and it really does.

Karol Miller (22:50):

Yeah.

Ric Shields (22:51):

Karol, there are some signs that help us to know that healing is taking place. Grief Share, that program that we both help facilitate, has identified six of them. They are 1) accepting the reality of your loss, 2) learning how to process and manage your emotions, 3) adjusting to a world without our loved one, 4) addressing big questions, especially the “why” question, 5) continuing life without your loved one and finally 6) comforting others.

(23:30):

I know these signs of healing are not just one-time events. Sometimes again, we go through them repeatedly in the process of dealing with our grief. In your life, have you found any of these stages to be more than others?

Karol Miller (23:47):

Yes. The most difficult for me was accepting the death of my husband. He had traveled a lot in his work. He'd be gone for a week or two at time and come home and have to travel again. So, when he died, my emotional makeup was always, “he'll be back in another week or two.” That didn't happen. But as I went through Grief Share, and we would come to that particular class where it talked about, they're gone. They're not coming back.

(24:17):

I can remember looking down and reading where I had written, “He is not coming back.” Seeing it written in my own handwriting did not change how I felt. It took over two years for me to actually believe and accept Curt was not going to come home. Very, very difficult. That was number one.

(24:40):

Number two, figuring out how to live without him. I had never ever, ever lived alone. I left my father's house, went to a college dorm, I left a college dorm, went to my husband. I had never lived alone, ever. I didn't think I'd know how to do it. That was the scariest part for me. I was afraid I couldn't sleep. I kept hearing the house creak, heard noises I never had to pay attention to before. I had to go get a security system so I could at least know whatever I heard wasn't going to be a burglar. It was not good for me in the long term. If it had not been for my church family hanging in there with me, I, I don't know what I would've done.

Ric Shields (25:31):

You've also found that this process of comforting others has been really helpful to you too.

Karol Miller (25:39):

Oh my gosh, yes. I love Grief Share because I can look at somebody and say, “you know what? There will be a tomorrow and it's going to be okay.” I can look at somebody and say, “oh, I have the answer to this. You need a money guy. You need to go to the bank, get somebody to show you how to walk through the wills and the trust and the how to get your house in your name.”

(26:06):

I have some answers in this world for people. And that's good. That's good to know.

Ric Shields (26:13):

And that is actually their final step, that concept of comforting others. It seems as if they believe that this all builds to that until you come to the point that you're able to use your experiences to help others, but it also comforts you in the process.

Karol Miller (26:30):

That's scripture, Ric. We are comforted where we have been comforted. So, when we've been comforted, we can share that with somebody. That's the Word.

Ric Shields (26:45):

I am so grateful for the guests who have joined us over the past 10 weeks as we discussed the topic of “Final Things.” I've learned quite a lot and hope the same is true for you.

(26:56):

If your present journey is leading you through a dark time or the Valley of the Shadow of Death, like King David wrote about in Psalm 23, I hope you'll find a friend or a group of others who can help to bring encouragement and comfort to you. You can do it alone, but we are designed to depend upon and grow with others.

(27:17):

I think sharing the 23rd Psalm would be a great way for us to end this series. Join me as I read from the New King James Version. You can read along in whatever version is easily available to you. I think it'll sound pretty similar. May this be our prayer.

(27:36):

The Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want.

He makes me to lie down in green pastures.

He leads me beside still waters. He restores my soul.

He leads me in paths of righteousness for his name’s sake.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death,

I will fear no evil for you or with me.

Your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

You prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies.

You anoint my head with oil. My cup runs over.

Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life

and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever. Amen.