Finding the Right Pathway

Imagine this, you're an accomplished musician. You sing, you play the piano, you lead a worship team, direct your choir, you write music. You even have the opportunity to conduct a symphony orchestra as a guest conductor. You really love ministry and your future seems headed in the right direction. But then the time comes when you start feeling a little bit unsettled and a big question grows in your heart: “Am I a musician who just happens to be a pastor, or am I a pastor who just happens to be a musician?” And the answer is not as simple as saying, “I am both.”

Thanks for joining me as I talk with Dan Wootton about his ministry journey to Tulsa, Oklahoma 20 years ago, a 10 year sojourn to a large church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and his recent return to Tulsa where ministry puts him in a new role as the lead pastor at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma. 

Transcript

FINDING THE RIGHT PATHWAY
GUEST: Dan Wootton
Season 3, Episode 33

Ric Shields (00:00):

Imagine this, you're an accomplished musician. You sing, you play the piano, you lead a worship team, direct your choir, you write music. You even have the opportunity to conduct a symphony orchestra as a guest conductor. You really love ministry and your future seems headed in the right direction. But then the time comes when you start feeling a little bit unsettled and a big question grows in your heart: “Am I a musician who just happens to be a pastor, or am I a pastor who just happens to be a musician?” And the answer is not as simple as saying, “I am both.”

(00:37):

Thanks for joining me as I talk with Dan Wootton about his ministry journey to Tulsa, Oklahoma 20 years ago, a 10 year sojourn to a large church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, and his recent return to Tulsa where ministry puts him in a new role as the lead pastor at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma. I'm Ric Shields, you're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast.

(01:09):

I'm speaking today with my friend Dan Wootton, the lead pastor at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Dan, his wife Mandy, and their four children assumed that role in January of 2024. Thank you, Dan, for joining me as we discuss your journey to this ministry role.

Dan Wootton (01:25):

It's a privilege to do it, Ric. I feel like I'm sitting down with an old friend, not because either one of us is old, but because we've been friends for a long time.

Ric Shields (01:34):

Well, I don't know if either one of us is old <laugh>. You are not. But man, I'm moving that way.

Dan Wootton (01:40):

Ric and I were on staff together at Carbondale Assembly for several years when I was in my twenties, and I attributed Ric, Ric is really good if you need someone to talk you off of a cliff. And Ric was always a voice of peaceful wisdom in my life during my reckless twenties.

Ric Shields (01:59):

Dan, I still remember the day when you drove into the church parking lot 19 years ago. Was it a, it was a Chevy Cavalier convertible, wasn't it?

Dan Wootton (02:08):

That is wonderful memory. I'm super impressed. Yes.

Ric Shields (02:11):

You had just graduated from Central Bible College in Springfield, Missouri. You were engaged to Mandy, and here you were starting your first position on a church staff as the worship and music director. But really by the time you arrived, you'd already had a lot of experience in the area of leading worship and churches and with various musical groups. In fact, you grew up a PK or a preacher's kid, and that brings with it a long list of opportunities and responsibilities.

Dan Wootton (02:40):

Yeah, I, I have no bad memories from my childhood, and that's a huge blessing to say. And the privilege of growing up in a house that was centered around the ministry of the church, it might have been a burden to my parents. And the more that I know now, understanding what ministry is like, that might have been their experience. They did a phenomenal job of shielding us from the bad stuff and welcoming us into the good stuff.

(03:05):

And so, our household would've been a household where at 2:00 PM on Sunday, mom would be saying, “Hey, what are we doing tonight for worship? Or who's, who's Going to sing something special?” And then it fell on <laugh> one of us to figure out the answer to that question, whether it was playing an instrument or singing a song. We would always, on Sunday afternoons, go to a retirement home and put puppet shows on for retirement center people. And like all of those things are, it was a wonderful sweet way. It's part of the reason I still love the ministry of the church today is because of that, those experiences

Ric Shields (03:39):

Four kids, right?

Dan Wootton (03:40):

I, yes. I'm number two out of four, and then I myself have four.

Ric Shields (03:45):

Were all of the kids musicians?

Dan Wootton (03:47):

We are all musicians. So, my mother was the loving military piano teacher, and so it was a mandatory part of being in our family. The oven timer was set on top of the piano, and then there was a backup timer in the kitchen just to make sure you weren't meddling with the timer. And so all four of us kids learned piano. All four of us kids continue to do music today.

Ric Shields (04:09):

And your brother plays a trumpet pretty well, too.

Dan Wootton (04:13):

Yeah. So, my, my older brother is a classical trumpet player, and so he teaches at several different universities, and plays with several different professional symphony orchestras. Both of my sisters are involved in worship music and their church as worship leaders and pianist and piano teachers.

Ric Shields (04:27):

Did you believe the Lord had called you to be a worship leader?

Dan Wootton (04:31):

Yeah, and it was something that just came simply. We were at a very small church in Arizona, in the Phoenix area, and my aunt played organ for Tommy Barnett over at the First Assembly in Phoenix, which at that time in the 80’s was the largest Assemblies of God church in America. It was huge. So, we would go over to experience their Christmas or Easter productions and be part of that experience. And it was just so grand. It was just larger than life. And I remember as an elementary student sitting there watching all of that happen and just knowing if there was a way that I could use music to impact people with the truth of the gospel, that was just Going to be the coolest thing that could ever happen.

Ric Shields (05:10):

I've always been amazed not just by the amount of work you're able to do, but by the quantity and the quality of the output you provide. Many people work hard, but that doesn't mean they're productive.

(05:21):

So, you came to Tulsa to serve on staff, was it in 2015? Is that correct?

Dan Wootton (05:28):

No, you're 10 years off

Ric Shields (05:30):

2005. I'm sorry.

Dan Wootton (05:31):

Yeah. So, 2005. Yeah. So, 2005 me and Mandy got engaged in the spring semester. I moved here by myself first for the first four or five months, and then we got married in October of 2005.

Ric Shields (05:44):

But wasn't long after you started serving as our worship pastor that you began to find additional ministry and educational venues that were added to your responsibilities as a worship leader. I recall you helped restart a choir at a local public school. You were a bit of a playwright and a composer. You earned your master's degree in conducting. What I don't recall is if you ever slept? <Laugh>

Dan Wootton (06:11):

That's very kind of you. I, I do sleep well, I do sleep well, and I love sleeping for a long period of time. I don't, I don't know how to explain that. <Laugh>, I'm giving you a bad, I'm giving you a bad answer here.

(06:23):

I think I've always just been so driven towards opportunity that when the door opens, I just feel so compelled to walk through it. And one of the things that happened in my very first year here at Carbondale is that we had a lady in the church who was a middle school choir teacher. She went on pregnancy leave and they didn't have anyone to fill that spot. And so, when I see that, I just see an open door, I'm happy to say “Yes.” And so, I went and helped do part of her maternity leave for that middle school choir, which then just continued to open doors.

(06:56):

And so, as each one pries open, I just kind of intuitively received that as God's will of the open door in front of my face, and we're just Going to walk into it. So that led to five years of being the volunteer high school choir director. That was wonderfully fulfilling.

(07:11):

I saw one of my students in New York City six months ago. It was a joyful experience that still has dividends today. So, each door just kind of compels me and it makes me lay in bed at night dreaming about it and ready to hop out of bed in the morning to chase after the next thing

Ric Shields (07:29):

Here you're the worship director, but then these other things start to add up. What were you thinking? Were you second guessing your call as a worship leader, or what was going on?

Dan Wootton (07:39):

That's a great question, and I know we're going to talk further down this pathway. But there was a time where the question in my spirit was, “Am I a musician who just happens to be a pastor or am I a pastor who just happens to be a musician?” And it was in those years in my middle to late twenties where that's what we were exploring. And I think at times there were times of discouragement where there were doors that were not being opened in the church world that were being opened in the secular world.

(08:10):

I'll share an example of one of those disappointing times. There was a time that we did a fully original Christmas album here with the Sanctuary choir here at Carbondale. And it was so much fun. I had so much joy in it, and part of the process was this feeling of like, well, this could be something that could be shared.

(08:29):

So, I remember sitting down in my office in January, the month after we had finished this concert, and putting together 60 packets of 8 1/2 x 11 manila envelopes with a poster from the concert and a CD of the recording and some samples of sheet music. And just putting all of this effort and getting online and looking for Christian music publishers looking for other large programs and mailing out these 60 copies in hopes that someone else cared. That someone else would resonate with what we were doing. That there was possibly an opportunity for publishing. And in those years, my mid-twenties, it just became clear that those doors, the doors I was knocking on in the church world were closed, and the doors that were open were the doors that were somewhere else.

Ric Shields (09:18):

You were in Tulsa about 10 years, and then you made a big transition. Why?

Dan Wootton (09:24):

Yeah. It's so interesting to think all of this through, and though it's been 10 years, there's still a fair amount of this that just doesn't make sense to me. So, when I was 26, there was an opportunity that came with one of the professional symphony orchestras here in town. And most people don't know the whole story because they saw just the outward. And so, the outward evidence is that I was playing piano and conducting and composing for this professional orchestra, which was a wonderful experience. Like I would not trade this experience for the world. It brought me so much joy and education, and it was a wonderful thing. The behind the scenes story with that is that at the beginning of that process, at the beginning of those five years, I was approached with the idea that that was going to become my future.

(10:15):

I was approached not with the promise, but with the hope that I could become the music director of this professional symphony, and that that was the path that things were moving towards. Well, and the person who had done that role previously, they also were engaged in a church. And so, it wasn't necessarily going to require a complete break from church, but it was an exciting future.

(10:37):

I think something that's funny about church music is that aging in church music is kind of challenging. Psalm says, “Sing to the Lord a new song,” and there's a need for freshness in church worship music over and over again. If you swap that over to the classical world, in the classical world age is king and it's a wonderful place to age in because the person who's conducted Beethoven's Symphony Number Five a hundred times, is always better than the person who's conducting it for the first time.

(11:06):

And so, there was a future path in that area that had my brain thinking, “Well, that's where I could age really well. Like that's where I could go and do that for the rest of my career.” And I believe that was the way for probably four or five years of my life until things took a very different turn.

(11:27):

Maybe four months before we left Tulsa, we were in Indianapolis, Indiana, and we were at a Italian restaurant, and I stepped out of the restaurant for a phone call and Mandy knew the phone call might be coming, so she stepped out of the restaurant with me, and it was the symphony orchestra. And they kindly explained that because of my age and because of my inexperience, that they were not going to be considering me for the, that I was leaning towards.

(11:55):

And I got off the phone and Mandy was the first one to say it and just took a deep breath. And Mandy said, “I think we're leaving Tulsa.” And it was a yes. It was such a clear closed door that it seemed impossible to just stand still.

Ric Shields (12:14):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields and I'm joined on this episode with my friend Dan Wootton. He's the lead pastor at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma.

(12:25):

Knowing the will of God seems to be a pretty tricky thing for a lot of people. Some get all wound up worried that they will miss the perfect will of God while living in the permissive will of God. Did that ever enter your mind or cause you to question your decision to relocate to another church in Milwaukee, Wisconsin?

Dan Wootton (12:45):

I think part of it happened so quickly, and I think some of the speed is actually how it all got pulled off. I think if you slowed it down, if you forced me to take six months or nine months to think about something, it's really easy to pull your hand off the trigger when things are moving quickly. It kind of forces you to make more instinctual decisions.

(13:06):

So, Craig Groeschel out of LifeChurch in Edmond, OK, he will talk about the coin toss decision. And the coin toss is not actually to allow the coin to make the decision. It's about the speed to make the decision. And that if you threw a coin in the air, what does your gut tell you? Like what does your spirit tell you? By the time the coin hits the table, what do you think the answer is? Because chances are, if you did spin around it for another three or four months or six or eight months, you're just going to get so bogged down in the decision in the process that sometimes allowing speed to help usher the decision is going to get you to the right space.

(13:44):

And so, I remember in January that month, there was a snow day in Tulsa, which in Tulsa means an inch and a half of snow. And so, we…

Ric Shields (13:50):

Or less. <Laugh>.

Dan Wootton (13:52):

Yeah. And so, we took that day and prayed together as a family and just felt clear direction to move ahead. And so, we jump on things. You know, part of that speed is like everyone needs income. And so, I'm not going to take three months off of work before I do the next thing.

(14:07):

And so, we do this, we get everything moved, we switch, we say goodbye to wonderful friends and family who we had loved dearly for 10 years. We plant in. And when you walk in the door, you can't walk in the door to somewhere new while you're mourning what you just lost, right? You have to put on your game face. You have to walk in somewhere new and say, “Yay, I'm so excited about being here.” And so, we did that and we jumped into it and had a wonderful six months of ministry in Milwaukee.

(14:32):

But if you saw the public face of what was happening there, you weren't seeing what was happening privately. And privately, that was an extremely difficult time. If there was a time in my life where I would've recognized the symptoms of depression, that period of life is probably as close as I've gotten.

(14:48):

There was a bed that we had that had damage to the bottom side of the bed, like one of the supporting rods. There was a period of time in Milwaukee where our bed was being held up by dozens of classical scores of books that I had purchased for my program, for what I thought was going to be the future. And yet I was just so wrong. The door had been closed, and now it was literally <laugh> holding our bed together. And it was a symbol to me of asking God, “What is going on? I don't understand what you're doing. I don't understand why those doors were closed. I don't understand why I live in Wisconsin now. I can't see your plan here.”

Ric Shields (15:30):

Well, I know you had wonderful opportunities in Wisconsin, too, over the next 10 years that you were there. But during that 10 years, things changed in your head and your heart. I mean, it really started to coalesce and make more sense. What was causing that?

Dan Wootton (15:47):

I think one of the blessings of staying somewhere a long time is that things do come in seasons; is that even for the person who can serve in one job or in one church for 30 or 40 years, it's not like everything's the same for 30 or 40 years. There are always things to turn around.

(16:04):

And so, if I think about 10 years in Wisconsin, all of that came to me in seasons. The opening season would've been fully focused in worship ministry. And then we had some personnel changes, and then it became more focused about creative arts and production, more of coaching relationships with adding staff members, with becoming a person who didn't need to be the center of it, but the person who was moving out from the center to bring other people into the story.

(16:31):

I think so much of my experience in Milwaukee was about mentoring, and it was about building teams and about making a program that functioned really, really well when I wasn't there. And so, I think those leadership giftings were all kind of in the move.

(16:45):

One of the big things that shifted for us in Milwaukee was during Covid. One of my really good friends who I was on staff with shared the office next to me. He became a lead pastor during that time. And, and it's one of those things where you see a role that seems above you. It's too righteous, it's too holy. You know people that have just been amazing lead pastors, and it looks like they're doing something that is a little more than human. And when I had a friend who was my age, who was my peer, made this leap and started lead pastoring, it was a gift to me personally because it was something that raised my faith. And I, it's <laugh> it's funny to say it, but it's also like, “Well, Tom can do this.” Right? <Laugh>,

Ric Shields (17:26):

If Tom can do this, I can do this.

Dan Wootton (17:28):

If one of my friends, if one of my peers, if we're at that spot now where this is open, then maybe I shouldn't keep that door closed myself, that that should be a possibility that's on the table for us.

(17:40):

So, when he left the staff, our lead pastor in Wisconsin asked me and Mandy to step into the teaching position of our midweek service. That forced more things off of my plate in the music department, and it forced more things onto my plate in the teaching pastoring category. And led to what we didn't know at the time was a wonderful growing experience.

(18:06):

It's kind of like, you know, if I, going back to my twenties with Carbondale, like Carbondale Choir here was a phenomenal group of people who allowed us to lead while we learned. And so, they gave us a place of respect knowing that we were immature 20 year olds. They allowed us to lead while we learned and grew.

(18:25):

And in the same way in my thirties, I will always have a huge heart of gratitude to the people in that midweek Bible study, church service that allowed us to lead while we learned that allowed us to get through our first six week sermon series and to work through some of those things. Because as all of that happened, the possibility continued to strengthen.

(18:47):

So, it would've been January of 2023 that we felt clear direction from the Lord that 2023 was Going to be the year of change, that this is what it's going to be. We are not going to be in Milwaukee by the end of 2023. And we felt that so confidently and had no idea where that was going to be at.

Ric Shields (19:05):

So, Pastor Phil Taylor resigned in May of 2023 as the lead pastor at Carbondale Assembly of God. And he served in that role I think for 39 years. At that time, the church had an average in-person attendance of around 500 people, I think. And that's considered a large church. You had no previous experience as a lead pastor. So how did you decide that you were ready to be considered for that open position at the church?

Dan Wootton (19:32):

Well, again, the story didn't start with Carbondale. I think legitimately the story started with calling. And so, in January, February, March, we took three months and just prayed about it. It was only a conversation we were having between me and Mandy. And then the 1st of March, there was two pastors that we got on the phone, and one of them was my uncle John Wootton, who is the superintendent of the Assemblies of God in Ohio. And the other one was Darryl Wootton, who I'm not related to, but is the superintendent of the Assemblies of God in Oklahoma. And we got on a speaker call with both of those men at separate times and just talked through everything that you're saying. “Are we crazy? Lord, if, if this is a moment of pride that I'm just trying to move into something, then please humble me. You know, please shut this door. If I'm going into this for the wrong motives, then don't, don't let this happen. But if this is from you, what do I need to do to be brave right now? What do I need to do to take a next step? What do I need to do to find the pathway that God would have for us?”

(20:32):

And so that led us into four or five months of just open conversations. And it was a very exciting and unnerving time period because we were watching the months go by and wondering, “Did we hear what we thought we heard? Is this the path that we're supposed to be on?” Yeah. So, there were several months that we were just walking through this season of open conversations and we would look at an opportunity or meet with a person and we would walk forward close enough until we saw a “No,” and then we would move on to the next thing. And so, it really wasn't until later in the year that we began to understand that there was a possibility that we could be coming back home to Carbondale.

Ric Shields (21:12):

Was there a point prior to your election by the congregation at Carbondale where you felt confident in your heart that God was going to place you in the role as the lead pastor?

Dan Wootton (21:23):

See, I actually, I do love this question because there absolutely was a point. It was in September and October and we had begun to dream about this. And the way that my creative mind works is once I start dreaming about something, it becomes really difficult to turn it off. And so I would find myself late at night dreaming about what it could be like to make a 25 year impact in the city of Tulsa, what it could mean to return to some relationships here that we love very dearly what it could mean to lead a missions organization, like just all of the pieces to being a lead pastor in early in that process.

(21:58):

I would discipline myself and say, “Dan, don't do that. Like, if that's not what God's will is going to be for you to sit here and dream about it, that's just going to let your hopes up. That may be unhealthy for you to be fixating on that future.” I wrestled with that on almost the permissiveness of, “Heavenly Father, am I allowed to dream about this or am I not allowed to dream about this?”

(22:21):

And there really was a significant week in that fall where I felt God gave me full permission to hope. And I told Mandy, “I feel like God has given me permission to hope for this, and so I'm going to dream about it. And until it's not done, I'm just going to pretend that it's done. I'm just going to let my heart believe that this is what's going to happen. And if we get down the road and God closes the door, I know that God is good enough to counsel me through my disappointment. And so, until that moment, I'm not going to go back and forth on this. I'm just going to choose to hope, and we're just going to pretend that it's already done.”

(22:58):

And it gave me so such clear thinking because part of it is, part of it is a lack of trust in God for you to say, “I can't hope because if it doesn't happen, then I'm just going to be a mess or I'm just going to be a wreck.” Well, God's still going to be good, even if you're a wreck to stand wavering back and forth on the fence over and over again, that's exhausting in, in itself. And so, when God speaks, I would just, I would just encourage anyone, go for it. Just hope, just believe. If you're wrong, he's still going to be good. But in the meantime, set your thinking strong and just believe that it's done.

Ric Shields (23:35):

Do you think your role as a pastor is the fulfillment of God's gifts and calling on your life? Or do you think there's another step to be taken?

Dan Wootton (23:42):

One of the sweet things about this year was turning 40 was a significant marker. Think about all of the mentions of 40 years in the Bible and just that accomplishment. And I grew up in a household with a mom who was the worship leader and a dad who was the preacher. And so there has been some curiosity in my heart of Lord. “Was the first 40 years of my life in the nature of my mother, and will the next 40 years of my life be in the nature of my father?” And I can't answer that until it comes all the way to fruition. But it is absolutely our hope and intent that we're going to be in Tulsa the rest of our life.

(24:18):

And part of the reason is about ceiling; is that one thing that I hate are ceilings because you get stuck. And for me, growing and expanding and learning is life. And anyone in any position, in any organization is going to hit a ceiling. There's no blame to any leader in that. There's no blame to any organization in that. It's just naturally what happens is that someone who's in one spot, if they want to keep expanding and learning new things, that role isn't going to provide that opportunity.

(24:48):

One thing that's really unique about being a lead pastor is that in this spot, my job is to expand the ceiling. My role of this church is to keep raising the ceiling of expectation and ministry and involvement. And so, if God gives me the giftings and if he gives me the peace and patience to keep raising the ceiling at Carbondale Assembly, I'm never going to hit my head.

Ric Shields (25:14):

What advice do you have for those who feel a change is coming in their life or ministry? Are there steps they need to take to be certain that they're headed in the right direction?

Dan Wootton (25:24):

I just want to say get out of the boat. And I don't mean that to encourage you to quit your job or to make rash or reckless decisions, but there is so much joy in the “faith ask” of Jesus telling Peter to get out of the boat. There is so much joy. And is there panic? Yes, there's panic. Yes, there are moments where you feel really, really unsafe, but the moment you put your foot down on that water and you don't start to sink, it is life transformational. And when you do what Jesus told us to do, when you do something brave, when you do something that cannot be explained in natural terms, it just makes life so worth the living, and it just makes your relationship with Christ so vibrant.

(26:11):

I'm a product of all of the fear moments that I've experienced. I'm a product of having that panic, trusting God 12 inches, and then trusting him 12 feet and then trusting him 120 feet. That experience, it changes you. And I would hate for anyone to miss out on that opportunity.

Ric Shields (26:35):

Thanks for joining me today. I hope you enjoyed this episode. Let me know if we're providing the kind of content that's helpful to you. Send me an email at info at DoorWays®.cc and let me know how we can be most helpful.

(26:48):

Until next time, the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine on you and be gracious to you. The Lord turn his face toward you and give you peace. Amen.