DIVINE INTERVENTIONS: "If Anyone Finds Out, I'm Done"

Jason Mathew, founder of the LeadMeNot app, shares his journey on the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. Born to Indian immigrants and raised in New York, Jason discusses his struggles with pornography and digital addiction, which began in his youth. He explains how his experiences with early internet technology and chat rooms influenced his views on sexuality and relationships.

Jason's story highlights the impact of cultural shame and honor on his behavior and the transformative power of Christian community and accountability in his recovery. The LeadMeNot app, developed from his personal struggles, aims to help users understand and manage their digital habits through AI and community support. Jason emphasizes the importance of transparency and holistic healing in overcoming digital addictions.

Transcript

TOPIC: Divine Interventions - "If Anyone Finds Out, I'm Done."
GUEST: Jason Mathew
S3, E45

Jason Mathew (00:00):

“If my wife finds out, our family is ruined, my marriage is ruined. If my boss or colleagues find out I'm, I'm gone. I'm done.”

Ric Shields (00:17):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields and I'm your host. Thanks for joining us today as I speak with Jason Mathew, the founder and developer of a new app called LeadMeNot. We'll get into the details of that in just a bit.

(00:31):

Jason's parents immigrated to the United States from India. He was born and raised in New York, but he didn't stay there. He has moved around a bit, and that is actually an important part of this story. We're continuing to discuss “Divine Interventions” and how God has impacted the lives of people in spaces and places, situations and circumstances in order to display his power and glory and to bring encouragement to the body of Christ. So, I'm glad today, Jason, you can be with us and I'm excited for you to share your story with our listeners.

Jason Mathew (01:00):

Thanks, Ric. I'm honored and privileged to be here today and excited for our conversation.

Ric Shields (01:05):

Well, there's some background that's important, but let's start off by letting people know briefly what the LeadMeNot app is all about.

Jason Mathew (01:13):

We want to redeem our relationship. We want the world to redeem our relationship with technology and help understand the "why" behind our digital habits. When we think about the time we spend on social media or the type of content we're consuming, the conversations we're having, we don't think much about the "why" behind it. Even outside of our digital lives, that's true of our physical lives. I think there's a lot of power when we can dig into the "why" of our digital lives and behavior, especially as it relates to unhealthy or destructive digital habits.

Ric Shields (01:53):

When we met a couple of days ago for the first time, you told me that some of your issues, specifically with sexuality, started when you were young. And by the way friends, Jason and I have already discussed the terms of this interview. We will not be explicit, but we're going to be honest. Jason, I hope our listeners will appreciate your perspectives in that regard.

(02:13):

So, with that in mind, please share what you mean when we spoke about these sexuality issues when you were young.

Jason Mathew (02:21):

Yeah, I was young, Ric, when I first was exposed to pornography. Quite young. And for those listening, I don't think I was any older or younger than probably most of the, the men, especially kind of thinking of the stories of guys that have been shared with me over the years. I must have been 8, 9, 10 years old, stumbling upon pornography in printed format. You know, it didn't help that I was raised and spent my formative years during the technology internet boom. So, it was around that same age range where we had just gotten internet in the house and AOL.

Ric Shields (03:06):

If I could find a recording of it, I'd put in those squeaks and all that <laugh>. Yeah, should so people could remember it.

Jason Mathew (03:13):

You should. You should find it and just put it in there.

Ric Shields (03:16):

I should.

Jason Mathew (03:16):

I'm sure.

Ric Shields (03:17):

Okay. Actually, here it is. Get ready.

Jason Mathew (03:19):

<Laugh> There we go.

Ric Shields (03:32):

Man, does that sound crazy? I can't believe for all those years we thought this was the beginning of something really cool.

Jason Mathew (03:38):

And with AOL came AOL chat, AIM, if anyone remembers that. Pretty crazy to think, you know, that was 20-some-odd years ago. What kind of that set that technology kind of set the groundwork for what we have today. But between pornography and the internet and chat rooms and having, thank God the conversations we were having were not with, you know, predators or anything like that. At least they could have very well been in those conversations. But I wasn't partaking in that it more had to do with, well, what did the internet offer was, man, now we're able to cons. I'm consuming things that my little mind is curious on. And having conversations with people of "Oh, you live in Timbukto. That's interesting. I'm in New York."

Ric Shields (04:28):

Yeah.

Jason Mathew (04:28):

So yeah, just think about being exposed to the content so young and how that then forms your view of sexuality in the world and women and our bodies and, you know. That continued from that age to my teens to my early to mid-twenties. It just took different shapes and forms.

Ric Shields (04:52):

Yeah. Leaving home and attending college probably brought entirely new levels of opportunity for you to explore. What was that like?

Jason Mathew (05:01):

Yeah, Ric, you probably couldn't guess it based off of my gregarious nature, but you know, I didn't date at all in high school. I didn't know how to even really talk to girls <laugh>, but when I got to college,

Ric Shields (05:16):

But you knew how to chat with them, right? Isn't that crazy? It's like the conversations are so completely different.

Jason Mathew (05:22):

I know, I know. And it's, you know as I share more my story, I think that's what made the transition to dating apps even easier, right? It's like, I think all of us are kind of behind the screen can become different people, but going into college, coming from a, a home where we didn't talk about dating sex, romance really at all. It was all kind of hidden. It was shameful, right? Asian Indian culture is very shame-honor based. So that's kind of

Ric Shields (05:53):

And your parents were believers though, is that right? They were Christians.

Jason Mathew (05:56):

Believers. Christian. Yeah, Kerala Christians who went five, four or five generations back. That's probably true.

(06:02):

But getting into college, I had all these, again, curiosities and things that I hadn't done and things that I've thought of doing and things I've seen done that I wondered what it was like in real life. And so, in college continued consuming pornography, but started to kind of open my mind and even in my own behavior of like being interested in women and crossing certain physical boundaries, that to me were kind of these like, “Wow, I've finally kissed a girl.” You know what I mean? Things that guys probably experienced much, much younger than I was at the time, but that's

Ric Shields (06:43):

I think I was in second grade when I kissed my first girlfriend. I'm not quite sure.

Jason Mathew (06:45):

There you go, <laugh>. There you go. You were. Ric Shields beat me to it. But yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, yeah. So then, you know, that set the kind of groundwork for what post-college adult life looked like, too.

Ric Shields (07:00):

So, a lot of the stuff though came about if I'm correct, through chat rooms, is that what you're saying?

Jason Mathew (07:06):

No, I mean the chat rooms piece, you know, when we were younger that nothing actually really came from that, other than having conversation starting to have conversations with, “Oh, you're, I'm a 13-year-old boy, you're a 13-year-old girl.” Like, oh, it's like, it's fun to talk to each other and then even just like entertaining the ideas of like, “Oh, like what if, you know, we met up in each other with each other in person.” Like just my imagination going that way.

(07:35):

But that wasn't anything, really throughout high school into college. College was more so actually starting to physically act out with a couple of girls, but not with a super lustful kind of mind intent. It was more of the more of the excitement of, “Oh wow. Like I'm actually talking to a girl and she's talking back to me” and Wow. Yeah. So it was more of that

Ric Shields (08:02):

Yeah. So, and dating apps were really developing during this time. I mean, dating apps weren't such a big deal at first. I mean, chat rooms were the way we met people, but then dating apps started to develop, you know, what, five, seven years later?

Jason Mathew (08:17):

Yeah. I mean, when I, so I started college in 2009. And then I graduated May, 2013. And then in August of 2013, I moved out to San Francisco to start my career. And Tinder, the first kind of defacto dating app, with you know, the swiping mechanisms, right? That had just come out probably months prior.

(08:44):

So that, Ric, set a groundwork for me. Like continued to kind of call it a building block, even though it's, you know, I hate to use that word, but a building block in my life as I was forming, again, my heart, and mind, spirit of, “Okay, how do I take this to the next level?”

(09:03):

Right now, I'm 22 and I’m living in Silicon Valley. The world is my oyster. And I went from, man, I've been so focused on academia and performance and getting a good job and, and like all those things were still core of like, I want to do that, but man, now I have space for women and, but now I have space, even more space to act on my sexual curiosities and dating apps. They have enabled that.

Ric Shields (09:30):

I've been happily married to my college sweetheart for 50 years. I've never been on a dating app. I think I saw one. I think somebody showed me one. And while I've heard a few good stories, most of what I've heard has not been so good. They actually sound like they can be a bit scary.

Jason Mathew (09:50):

Yeah, yeah. There, I haven't been on dating apps in a, in a long while, but there's a lot of, just like with any form of technology and just in the world of digitization, there's a good and bad side. There's good, there's evil, depending on how far down the road we go. And yeah, I think there's absolutely a redemptive side to dating apps. I have a lot of friends who have met on dating apps and would turn, was started with their dating girlfriend, boyfriend, now they're married, now they have kids, right? So, like, I can't sit here and say dating apps is the bane of society and the bane of romance.

(10:33):

And, but there is a big evil part of it, dark part, which kind of laid the groundwork culturally, societally for hookup culture. It took something that was already happening in, let's say the bar setting, right? Of we're, we're gonna go out, have a couple drinks, guy flirts with girl guy takes her home. It took that experience and scale made it scalable, right?

Ric Shields (11:00):

Hmm.

Jason Mathew (11:00):

Of, oh, I don't need to go to the bar now we're just talking, we're texting, we're sending photos, we're flirting. It's increasing in vulgarity of conversation. Now we're meeting up now I’ll close ‘em up, right? Like it truly scaled that process, but it, and the other way in the good way, it scaled the ability to meet people and date as well. I happened to, in the majority of my experience with dating apps use it the former,

Ric Shields (11:26):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields and I'm joined on this episode with Jason Mathew, a recovering addict of some crazy stuff. Let's just say that it's his story to tell, not mine.

(11:38):

Jason, one of your relocations took you to Washington, D.C. and it became a transformative place where you found God intervening in your life. So, what did you experience there?

Jason Mathew (11:49):

Yeah, when I moved to Washington, D.C. from San Francisco, I had just started to experience what Christian community looked like, what it felt like of walking with other men in my life. So, in San Francisco, I had some pretty core guy relationships. Josiah, George, Linell – like a handful of men who were pouring into me, spending immense amount of time with me. So, by the time I got to Washington D.C. I was like, “Man, I need more of this, right? And I want more of this, and this has to be again central to my life.” What I didn't have prior in San Francisco was like a men's group.

(12:35):

So, I started meeting with a group of men on a pretty consistent basis. So, you know, I was in DC for about two and a half years, but at some point, I don't remember when, I don't know if it was right off the bat. I don't know if it was two months in, six months in a year. But one of the guys in our group, we'll call him Gary, Gary started to openly, first time I ever met someone who openly confessing on a weekly, biweekly basis, “Hey guys, I slipped up, I watched porn. Hey guys, I slipped up. I acted out with myself.” And I never experienced that before. Ever, ever, never had guys or, you know, anyone in my life who were just like, without shame and guilt. Maybe a little bit of it, I don't fully remember, but like still a posture of, “I trust you guys.” I'm sharing and I'm sharing, and he's, she's sharing and sharing. And so, imagine hearing this on a consistent basis.

(13:32):

And then me in parallel, you know, there were a few times I messed around with girls in Washington, DC but even if it was two times or five or once, it was more than once, me carrying this immense burden of what am I doing right, of this secret that was just eating away at me. It was hearing Gary speak and speak that I finally opened up to him of my struggle. And I think that string of conversations with him really is what is when my kind of recovery journey initially started was when I openly confessed to another brother, “Hey, I've been struggling using apps, messing around with women. Here's what that's looked like and I want help.”

Ric Shields (14:17):

It's interesting that you talk about this in terms of recovery following another move this time to Texas, things really began to fall into place for you. You told me that that's really where your recovery started. So, when you talk about recovery, what do you mean by recovery?

Jason Mathew (14:33):

Yeah, when we use the term, when I use the term recovery, I'm using it in the sense of from a place of we are all broken. We are all broken people, whether you're Christian or not. It'll make more sense if you do have a Christian faith. So, when I got to Texas, I formally started a process of walking with men and women on a healing journey, on a recovery journey of acknowledging my brokenness and my sin and saying, “I want to live in freedom from these things.”

Ric Shields (15:11):

Jason, when you said earlier that having this background from India, this difficult culture, this “shame” culture that really opened up a little bit of understanding for me because I know a little bit about it. Having never lived in it, I can't fully understand it. But the idea of the shame and what the shame that comes to me, the shame that would come to my family, the shame that my parents would experience and then add to that, it's a Christian background besides. Well, that's pretty heavy stuff then I can understand where that became a difficult, difficult issue for you especially.

Jason Mathew (15:48):

Yeah. Ric, what are you talking about? You're practically Indian. You've been to India more than me. <Laugh>, You know?

Ric Shields (15:53):

<laugh>? Yeah. Okay. Kidding. Okay. And it's not just India, but it's, it's Asia.

Jason Mathew (16:00):

It's Asia, yes. And you know, I was having conversation with our mutual friend of how you and I are connected, J.C., not Jesus. Not Jesus Christ, but him, too.

Ric Shields (16:12):

Well, we've been talking with him, too. <Laugh>. Yeah. We're talking about Joe Cook, our friend. He's the pastor at Hope Church in Broken Arrow. By the way, you can look that up. They're at 1502 East College Street in Broken Arrow. Or you can go online and look him up. Hopechurchba.Com.

Jason Mathew (16:29):

Yes. Yes. J.C., I didn't want to out him, but I'll let you do it.

Ric Shields (16:33):

That's okay.

Jason Mathew (16:33):

Yeah, <laugh>. Joe and I were talking about something that's been, you know, pretty challenging, difficult for me relationally the last just recently, the last few weeks. And he, you know, I, obviously, I know Asian cultures shame-honor base, we studied in college and, you know, sat in immense number of conversations where we, you know, as Asian Americans talking about our childhood, our past, present, future. So, it's like, it, it wasn't news, but it's probably normalized. It's gotten to the point where it's so normal for me where I don't even think about it. Like I forget that it's actually true.

(17:12):

So when Joe reminded this of me a few weeks ago of like, Hey, this thing, this hard thing I'm talking about relationally with some friends, look at it through the lens of shame, honor based. And like, that was such a different view for me to look at my situation of like, wow, yes.

(17:30):

So yeah, now take that shame-honor based approach and model and now apply it to things like sexuality. How, what are your expectations of friendship? What are your expectations of romance? What are your expectations of work of vocation? So again, it's not an identity statement as much as, you know, family of origin, what were my initial value system based off of? And it's crazy because I'm 33 years old right now, not living in a shame-honor based home anymore, right? There's no more, we're not in, you know, 18, 19 hundreds rural South India talking about,

Ric Shields (18:09):

Well, that's so indelibly imprinted in who you are that changing that is next to impossible.

Jason Mathew (18:18):

It's next to impossible, but there's power in acknowledging and recognizing it. And even for me in that moment and now like asking the Lord and even just practically, okay, how do I, where, where and how do I shift that view, especially when I try to put my value system onto someone else who didn't grow up with that

Ric Shields (18:41):

Tulsa's been your home for the last four years or so. There've been some ups and downs along the path, but out of these difficult experiences you realized the need existed to help people who were struggling with their online or with their digital experiences. So, would you explain to us about the LeadMeNot app and how it can help people?

Jason Mathew (19:04):

Yeah. LeadMeNot. I created it Ric, out of my struggle, my testimony, my story of essentially, oh well these other apps aren't helping in the simplest sense, these other apps aren't helping my use case of using dating apps and of sexting and of they're not capturing the words and the parts of conversation I need them to. I wanted to go build something better. That's in the simplest sense.

(19:30):

In a more extreme or in a probably more compelling way, man, these other apps and solutions aren't providing what I believe is key, which is a holistic approach towards healing. The vision for LeadMeNot is to be this digital wellness platform that allows us to understand the why behind our behavior and leveraging ai, artificial intelligence redemptively by having and leaning on community and accountability via radical transparency, but also helping us understand our story in a way that fosters our healing sim lead me not right now, those who are finding value in paying us or they're free users, lead me not allows you to block and monitor your device based off of your digital activity where you set these digital boundaries.

(20:29):

And if you go beyond those boundaries, then you're either blocked from accessing said content or website or app, or it sends an alert to your accountability partner, someone whom you trust, right? A friend, a partner. That's good. And again, not to bring shame and guilt, but to foster conversation and to bring about, man, what is going on in you right now in this moment.

(20:55):

And then every evening will prompt a user to fill an evening reflection of what is, how's your heart and mind and soul right now today, what triggered you, et cetera. So not incredibly novel, if we look at it based off of just that flow, the uniqueness and the power, is being able to again, look at our digital lives and activity and understand that, “Man, what I'm doing on my phone or my computer is a manifestation. It's a manifestation of my inner brokenness, my physical brokenness.” And it doesn't need, that doesn't mean, oh, I have to be addicted to pornography to use LeadMeNot and it could be again as simple as “Man, I just, I don't think I'm using Twitter or X.com in a pretty health in a really healthy way. Like I'm just on it for 15 minutes every day. And what's the point?”

Ric Shields (21:48):

15 minutes seems like that would be a minimal amount of time for a lot of people that just are so addicted to social media.

Jason Mathew (21:55):

Yeah, 15 minutes may not seem like a lot, but that's why this is a spectrum of when we think of digital wellness, because 15 minutes, I have a couple of guys in my life users of LeadMeNot who 15 minutes is just more than what they want to be on to start the day because that 15 minutes, once it's crossed, can actually very easily lead to 45 minutes. Yeah. Or an hour and a half.

Ric Shields (22:21):

So how do people get to LeadMeNot app. Help people understand. I suppose most of our people know, especially younger generation, but we have some people that might not be younger but who still need this help. So how do they get to it?

Jason Mathew (22:35):

Yeah. So LeadMeNot right now, is it's an Android only app. We're actually building the Apple iPhone version right now as we speak. So, this is on November 7, 2024. And I'm praying, when I hear this again three months from now, I can say iOS is done, but if you're on an Android phone, you can go to Google Play and search for LeadMeNot. That's one word, LeadMeNot. You go to our website, LeadMeNot.org to contact us. You hear my story, watch our pitch. And again, the big vision is to be able to run, lead me not on all devices and just tell a better story of, hey, this is more than just a blocking monitoring tool. This is actually a tool of healing that has the practicality of limiting your time on certain apps or websites, but also helps foster realization of, “Yeah, now I can understand more of why I'm doing what I'm doing.”

Ric Shields (23:38):

Jason, we probably have people listening who are really clicking into what you're saying. I wonder if you'd feel comfortable praying for them, praying for healing, for redemption, for hope for them. I wonder if you'd do that for us.

Jason Mathew (23:52):

Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to, Ric.

(23:55):

Yeah, Lord. And I thank you for the sacrifice that you've made of your son, that when that sacrifice was made, it was for all generations at the time, present and future. And knowing that any form of bondage that we're in now or that those that has been paid for already.

(24:16):

So first and foremost, thank you for that and we thank you. I also thank you that that sacrifice has offered and allowed the path where we can actually sit in freedom from what is ailing us, from what is burdening us on an hourly or daily basis for that thing that, “Man, if my wife finds out, our family is ruined, my marriage is ruined.” That thing that, “Man, if my boss or colleagues find out I'm done.” Whatever that is, Lord, for any of us listening in sexuality, in social media, in any form of kind of digital unhealth, Jesus, that it comes to light and it comes to light in a way that brings again us closer towards healing and recovery and freedom and not towards shame and guilt and condemnation.

(25:11):

So we thank you Lord, that we even have the opportunity to, to come to you as our Father, to share and to find peace and hope Your name we pray. Amen.

Ric Shields (25:25):

Maybe you are struggling with an addiction. You may have prayed fast than had done everything in your own power to find the freedom you need, but to no avail. The desires, behaviors, and patterns still remain. The truth is that you can't do it on your own or things that already be different. You need others, men and women, people younger than you, the same age as you, and even people older than you to help keep you on a healthy path. That's right, brokenness needs healing and broken things don't usually heal themselves. They need someone else to come alongside them and help them. The LeadMeNot app may be a tremendous help. It won't fix it all, but it will connect you with others who understand your struggle. Or you may find that a Celebrate Recovery® group in your church or your community is helpful to you.

(26:19):

Whatever it is, I hope you'll find the courage and the strength to reach out and get the help you need. Share your story with a counselor, a pastor, a physician, or someone who can help direct you to the resources you need.

(26:34):

I'm so glad you joined us for this podcast. If this has been helpful to you, drop me an email at info at doorways dot cc and let me know.

(26:42):

God loves you, your friends and family care about you and your well-being is worth more than you might know. May you find the grace and peace of the Lord Jesus to fill your heart in the days to come. Thanks for listening.