DIVINE INTERVENTIONS: Desperate Worship

Ric Shields and Chaplain Frank Gregory discuss the transformative power of divine interventions within the John Lilley Correctional Center in Boley, Oklahoma. Ric shares his initial uncertainties about volunteering at the correctional center and how it led to some of the most productive ministry of his life. Chaplain Gregory, with extensive experience in prison ministry, recounts stories of inmates experiencing profound spiritual awakenings and life changes, including former inmates who have become pastors. 

They highlight the importance of desperate worship and the unexpected presence of God within the prison walls. The conversation emphasizes the need for volunteers who feel called to prison ministry and the significant impact of providing support and discipleship to incarcerated individuals. 

The episode concludes with a prayer for expanded vision and compassion for those on the margins of society, encouraging listeners to reach out with love and grace.

Transcript

TOPIC: Divine Interventions – Desperate Worship
GUEST: Chaplain Frank Gregory
Season 3, Episode 50 

Ric Shields (00:00):

When I started to volunteer at the John Lilley Correctional Center of Boley, Oklahoma last year, I really did not know what to expect. I knew I would have to push through some personal bias and some difficult experiences. What I didn't know is that God would meet me on the other side of that emotional baggage and bring about some of the most productive ministry of my life.

(00:24):

I'm Ric Shields. I'll be joined today by Frank Gregory. He's a chaplain with the Oklahoma Department of Corrections. We're going to discuss divine interventions and what God is doing among the incarcerated people that society tries to lock away and forget. Thanks for listening to this episode of the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast.

(00:54):

So, Chaplain, how long have you been at the John Lilley Correctional Center?

Chaplain Gregory (00:59):

In January, it'll be five years.

Ric Shields (01:02):

Did you work anywhere else before then, or is this the one place you've been assigned to?

Chaplain Gregory (01:07):

Off and on, I've been involved in prison ministry for a long time, all the way back into the 1980s. I got involved again, more actively around the end of 2009, 2010, somewhere in there as a volunteer at two other facilities; Jess Dunn and Eddie Warrior, and I stayed involved for about 10 years as a volunteer and became full-time in January of 2020.

Ric Shields (01:38):

So, we're talking to you today. You're in your office at the John Lily Correctional Center. How many inmates are there at the center now?

Chaplain Gregory (01:45):

It fluctuates, but the average is around 838.

Ric Shields (01:49):

Is that, is that really a sustainable number? Is that overcrowding? What is that?

Chaplain Gregory (01:54):

No, that's pretty true. I mean, I've seen it up into the 840’s and then down into the 820’s. Normally it stays right around in the 830’s. We're not overcrowded. I mean, there are times when we probably do not have an empty bunk, but the men, you know, as such have their space. They don't have that issue that you've heard about at other times or in other states. So, we're blessed here. We're blessed even that we've been able to shut down a couple of facilities in the last five years. So that's, that's a good sign that we're needing less space for the incarcerated.

Ric Shields (02:38):

In the last few weeks, we've been discussing “divine interventions”; times when God showed up in places and spaces and did things that you just can't deny, had had to be God. I've had an opportunity to see some amazing ministry taking place through the chapel there at John Lilley Correctional Center. I've been involved with you directly for just about a year now. When I ask you about divine interventions and you think about that, what first comes to your mind? Something you're going, "Wow, only God could do something like that."

Chaplain Gregory (03:12):

I think of one man that has been out now for four years and he is now involved in a ministry in Oklahoma City, metro area and over around Edmond. I think back about when God started even moving me into this genre of ministry. I didn't really have prison ministry really front and center of my radar when I left retail management. But I wanted to be more involved in ministry than I had been. A more of a full-time basis like I had been in the past. I left the place I was at without a job knowing that was what God wanted me to do. I don't recommend that for people out there. I'm not telling you to do that, but I knew that's what I needed to do.

(04:06):

So, I did. And God began to work. Now, this was in October of 2019, and what's powerful about all this, He was moving another chaplain to leave a position she was in at another facility that literally, like we call it at times that domino effect, opened a door for me. Because She left, she retired and it was time, it opened a door for me to interview. Even though I did not go to that facility, God was able to get the ball rolling through that. I ended up coming and getting here only about seven weeks before this guy left. And when you start thinking about that, that's not much.

Ric Shields (04:52):

That's not much. It's not much time at all.

Chaplain Gregory (04:54):

But to me, to have had those seven weeks in front of him and him in front of me before he left has just mushroomed into a powerful friendship and mentorship that he continues to tell me I'm his chaplain. I'm his chaplain for life. It's so powerful that earlier this month I went down to the church that he pastors and leads now, and there were over 20 men there that day from John Lilley that were present for the chapel or the, the worship meeting. And we had our picture taken afterward, you know, had lunch and just so just time to visit and just reconnect

Ric Shields (05:37):

Former prisoner as a pastor.

Chaplain Gregory (05:39):

Yes.

Ric Shields (05:40):

How many times is this happening? Any idea?

Chaplain Gregory (05:43):

It's happening I think a lot more than we know. I know I heard a few years ago that Angola, which is, you know, has a notorious reputation as a correctional facility. It's down in Louisiana. I know that there are five “lifers” that used to be in Angola that are chaplains now. So that's powerful. How God can work situations out. I mean, move something that doesn't seem to be able to be moved and open the doors.

(06:13):

And so with this man, I, I just think so much seven weeks had, had I not listened to God and come, you're talking about the divine intervention and Him moving me, I would've totally missed this man and would've never had any kind of relationship, would've never had any connection or impact. But that's just led to so much more of God doing not just here, which is awesome. But now out there, through that continued ministry,

Ric Shields (06:42):

It's amazing how God is working in the backgrounds. We just often don't see it. We're just convinced that everything's happening right now, right in front of my face and a lot of the things we think are happening because we're doing them. But the truth is, it's not possible for us to do all the miraculous things that need to take place that God is doing in the background to put us in the right position at the right time, the right place. He's God, we're not, He never will be. He's never going to die and be out of a job.

Chaplain Gregory (07:10):

And this chaplain that left and retired, she shared with me how she struggled to leave, knowing that's what she needed to do, needed to do because she was needing to take care of her aging husband, who's now since gone to be with the Lord. She knew, but she hated to do this. She had been where she was over 20 years and was very successful in the ministry God had given her there.

(07:37):

But I, and, and then I'm struggling at the same time to leave Reasor’s. I mean, I don't mind saying that's where I was, knowing that I needed to leave there. So, we're both struggling with these decisions literally about the same month of that year, August, that we're making these decisions to leave. So, you never make a solitary decision. You think you are and you think, “oh, I'm all alone in this decision and that I'm making,” and you may be in the sense of you taking on the responsibility to step out in faith and do what God's calling you to do.

(08:17):

But I can guarantee I know without a doubt, you know, just like when God moved on Cornelius, he was moving on Peter at the same time in the Book of Acts. And so, he's working somewhere else in someone else's life to prepare you for the next step. And you guys don't even know each other.

Ric Shields (08:37):

That's right.

Chaplain Gregory (08:37):

You don't even know that person exists. But He's working it out. And that's just coming here. If I did nothing here, if I had just showed up and I just sat here every day, which far from it, but just the faith lesson from knowing that you listen to God, you do what He says when He says to do it, you don't question it because you have no idea what He's unwrapping on the other end.

Ric Shields (09:04):

Tell me about some of the guys that are there that you're serving. This is a minimum security prison, but typically this isn't where the guys originate. They often originate in a higher security level. Is that correct?

Chaplain Gregory (09:17):

That's correct. A lot of them are on their way home. We call it, they're on their way out. They started in higher security in a medium and through point systems or good behavior and just other variables and factors involved. They're downgraded, which this is the one place you want to be downgraded,

Ric Shields (09:38):

Right?

Chaplain Gregory (09:39):

You know, you're downgraded to a lower security facility and many of them have come from other facilities across the state. We're not necessarily the last stops. They go from here to a community prison where they can actually get jobs and work and leave and come back at the end of the day. It just all depends.

(10:00):

But yes, they are here to go home and some do their whole time here. The gentleman I'm mentioning that's the pastor now, he did every day of his time here on this yard. And I think it was about a 5-7 year sentence that he was serving. But most of the guys don't have that luxury. They're not able to do that. They come in from somewhere else. So, you may have someone come in here from anywhere from three weeks to 10 years. I mean, it really varies.

Ric Shields (10:36):

You know, we've often heard over the years that one of the greatest revivals that's taking place in America is taking place in our prisons. Do you agree with that?

Chaplain Gregory (10:44):

Absolutely. To see what God is doing here, to hear volunteers walk on this yard and especially the first time they come here and get a total sense of presence that they are not looking for expecting, they're not expecting to encounter God here. They're not expecting to encounter an anointing here on any part of this place. Not even here in the chapel alone, but I mean out on the grounds. They'll tell me, I had a volunteer come here one time for the first time, it's been over a year ago now, but he said, I'm just going to tell you, God met me at the gate. I'll never forget him telling me that God met. He, he said, God met me at the gate.

(11:29):

So, you know, when we don't expect God to be somewhere like this, we're limiting God greatly. God can show up anywhere He wants to. He, you know, we like to talk about Him owning the whole earth and it's, you know, the fullness of the Lord is everywhere, but we don't always really believe that. We almost put limits. And it's like we feel just because there's a fence with razor wire up around here. God can't get in. He can go in. He can get anywhere he wants to.

Ric Shields (12:02):

He doesn't...razor wire doesn't bother him. He's good.

Chaplain Gregory (12:06):

No.

Ric Shields (12:06):

You know, I've just been amazed. One of my favorite times was the first Wednesday, is it a Friday night that they do, Wednesday night that they do these…

Chaplain Gregory (12:15):

Wednesday night.

Ric Shields (12:15):

…inmate led worship services.

Chaplain Gregory (12:17):

Yeah. The John Lilley Church

Ric Shields (12:18):

And I came to one, I think it was in March of this past year. And to be there and watch 130 guys dressed in orange, and I was the only guy not dressed in orange. 130 guys dressed in orange. And so many of them are standing and raising their hands and they're worshiping Jesus. And at the end they're calling out to the guys, hey, come on down to the altar, come on, pray for your families. And these guys are rushing to the altars and they're praying for their families. And I felt like I was the guy that was a prisoner, that these guys were free. And I was the guy that was shackled. And it was just an amazing. It was a very dynamic time. It really touched my heart.

Chaplain Gregory (13:03):

There's something I've coined, and I'm sure I'm the only one ever first to call it this, but what I say, Ric, is there's nothing that can replace desperate worship. And that's where we feel we have to call on God. We have to get in His presence. We have to touch Him. He has to touch us because we've reached the end. And that's, these guys realize that they know this is where they're at. They're at the end. If they don't do something, if God doesn't do something, they're done.

Ric Shields (13:40):

Yeah.

Chaplain Gregory (13:40):

And the miraculous thing is society and culture as a whole think they're done. When they put them in here, we're rid of them, you know? They'll lock them up and throw away the key. But that's not God's plan. That's not God's plan. And so, He's showing that His plan is greater.

(13:59):

Philippians was written from prison, one of several books, the millions of people Philippians has touched. All the verses we quote from Philippians, "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. God will supply your needs according to his riches and glory. I press toward the mark," on and on and on. Those all came from a prison cell. Every one of those verses. Think about if Paul had not gone to prison, we wouldn't have Philippians among other books. But that's just what I've been focusing on more than the others at this time.

Ric Shields (14:34):

But I had a guy recently tell me, and this just still sticks with me. He said, I'm alive because I'm in prison.

Chaplain Gregory (14:41):

Yeah.

Ric Shields (14:42):

My siblings have died because of their addictions, my two brothers and my sister died because of their addictions. But I'm alive because I'm in prison. You know what a hard thing to realize that sometimes it's a severe mercy is what CS Lewis would call it, I think. And that it can be pretty severe. But these guys have come to learn that God's mercy, while it may be severe, His grace is amazing to them.

Chaplain Gregory (15:13):

We talk about all the time that, I mean, very brutally, hey, better to come here and go to heaven than never be on a yard and die, go to hell. If God...

Ric Shields (15:25):

Because you've got guys that are getting born again there on a regular basis.

Chaplain Gregory (15:29):

Oh, all the time. All the time. Yeah.

Ric Shields (15:33):

And more often than not, I'm sorry, maybe I shouldn't, this isn't fair to say. Often people from the outside, come in and they preach and preach to these guys and pretty much they all want them to get saved every week. But so many of these guys really are following Jesus, serving Jesus, and they need some discipleship.

Chaplain Gregory (15:53):

Absolutely.

Ric Shields (15:55):

I'm grateful that we can have a small part in that, but I know there are many others too that are, have discipleship ministries there.

(16:02):

How can people get involved? I know that you've got a lot of volunteers already at John Lilley Correctional Center, but there are correctional centers all over Oklahoma and obviously, and other states and other countries. What do people need to do to get involved in the first place?

Chaplain Gregory (16:17):

Well, I think you need to pray and, and really determine if this is where God wants you, because it's not for everyone. And I mean, it's not for the faint of heart and it's not for, I don't know how to say, coming here is not a field trip.

Ric Shields (16:32):

It is not,

Chaplain Gregory (16:33):

This is not coming to the zoo. This is not going to, you know, blue Bell factory, seeing how Blue Bell's made. I mean, it's not, it's, it's a prison. It's a correctional facility. So, you have to be willing to be way out of your comfort zone and be willing to comply to all the rules because security is number one priority here.

(16:58):

And maybe you start coming, you see it's not for you, and you stop. And that's okay. That's okay. Because we only want people who are really called. So, I would say really pray, come a few times if you need to, go to training, get badged, all the steps you have to take. We have it where you can come in on a one day guest pass if you want to, if you just want to come one time.

(17:22):

But yeah, get involved and if nothing else, you can give and you can support the corrections funds of the different yards so that they can buy videos and buy teaching materials and

Ric Shields (17:37):

Because the chapels aren't really funded for these kind of things, are they?

Chaplain Gregory (17:40):

No, this chapel and all chapels are built with private donations from believers, basically all across Oklahoma.

Ric Shields (17:48):

And not only that, but some of the ministry that takes place from inside the prison walls is funded by the inmates.

Chaplain Gregory (17:57):

Yes.

Ric Shields (17:58):

Like they have these bags that they give out to people who come in that are new to the yard. And they show up with nothing.

Chaplain Gregory (18:05):

Right.

Ric Shields (18:07):

And inmates that currently are there, are giving out of the small amount of money that they receive every month from the state. They're tithing and you're able to buy these shower shoes and razors and deodorant and shampoo and things that guys just have to have. And, and the inmates are doing this.

Chaplain Gregory (18:26):

Absolutely. We have ministries such as yourself and others that have brought hygiene packs in, but the predominant source of those hygiene packs are the men and giving their tithes, buying, purchasing these items from the canteen and then putting them in the hygienic care packages.

Ric Shields (18:45):

And so, if a person doesn't receive one of these from the chapel, what do they do? I’ve been saying to people, look, you get a chance to align yourself one way or another. You can either align yourself with people at the chapel who are willing to come and give and care for you and pray and explain what's going on. Or you can maybe consider there's other groups inside the prison that would be able to help you out. And that seems to be just such a bad idea.

Chaplain Gregory (19:09):

And you are immediately indebting yourself to that group and they've got you hooked. And that's one thing we're trying to keep from happening. Come down here, we're not expecting anything. We're going to give this to you, help you get started, help you get off on the right foot. At least keep your body clean if nothing else, and you want to come back to the chapel, fine. You don't, it's okay. We're not going to send a posse out to look for you and bring you down here.

Ric Shields (19:39):

It is just miraculous how God has used so many different people and so many different ways to reach others that are inmates there. And I've watched these guys caring for them for each other. It is crazy to watch them helping push guys in wheelchairs across the yard or walk with those who maybe on, on a walker. Just be helpful to them.

(20:00):

I've been in chapel services where maybe somebody had stepped out of their shoes because they, they were about to fall or something, and others very quickly come to their aid. I have witnessed a very caring community at the chapel that I've not seen in most churches, and chaplain, I think a lot of that is due to your leadership and your care, your training, your example. And let me just say thank you for that because I'm blessed to know you and participate with you in this ministry.

Chaplain Gregory (20:30):

You're welcome. It's a, it's an honor to, to get to be here every day. You know, I walked in here, I walked in this building at six o'clock this morning and as I'm walking in, I'm thanking God. Hey, thank you. I get to be here today and do this, to serve. It's a great place to see what God's doing.

Ric Shields (20:47):

I know you're on a tight schedule. I wonder if you'd be willing to pray for us that God would help us to open our eyes and open our hearts.

Chaplain Gregory (20:54):

Father God, every day is full of new opportunities and ways of seeing you work like we never have before. And I pray for DoorWays and Ric and, and the ministry he has that touches literally around the world, reaches across continents and continues to do that. Expand their vision and expand the vision of people here in this country. To know they don't have to go to a foreign land to reach some unreachable. They don't have to get a passport. They can come right here or some other place where there are incarcerated men and women and just show your love and compassion and truly be changed in such a profound way. Their lives will never be the same again. Seeing you work like you have at these different facilities. And we just ask you to plant those seeds, nurture them, and grow them in these lives. In Jesus' name, amen.

Ric Shields (22:00):

In Matthew 25, Jesus speaks about the hungry and thirsty, the stranger, the naked and the sick and the prisoner. Do you know anyone like that? Most of us know someone who's sick. I suppose there are those who know of someone who needs clothes and others who may know those who are hungry or thirsty. Many of us have met a stranger, but did we ever welcome them into our lives or our home? Probably very few have done that. And though our prisons are filled with men and women who have committed crimes or made terrible choices, most of us only know them because we saw their plight on the news or heard about them from friends or family.

(22:39):

Why did Jesus remind us of these people, those who live on the margin of society? Maybe it's so we can be afforded the opportunity to be his hands and feet and bearers of the good news.

(22:52):

No one, let me say that again. No one is beyond His love and grace. Murderers, liars, addicts, sex offenders, thieves, abusers, even corrupt politicians. His grace is greater than all their sin and His limitless love reaches to them, too.

(23:12):

This week, I pray you'll be challenged to reach out to those who are least like you and express to them love, grace, mercy, and joy found in following Jesus. Don't do it in the hopes of earning points in heaven or even leading someone in a sinner's prayer. Just do it because it's the right thing to do. In fact, it's what Jesus tells us to do.

(23:37):

Drop me a note this week at info at doorways.cc and let me know if we're providing the kind of content that's helpful to you. I'd like to hear how I can best serve you.

(23:46):

Until next week, may the Lord's blessing rest on you and on those you love as you follow after Jesus. Thanks for listening.