"What Did I Do?" with Joshua & Nicole John

In this episode of the Doorways Ministry Network podcast, Ric Shields speaks with Joshua and Nicole John, parents of a child who attempted suicide multiple times. The couple shares their emotional journey, discussing the unexpected challenges they faced, including the need to secure their home and the emotional toll on their family. They emphasize the importance of communication, prayer, and community support in navigating such crises. The Johns also highlight the necessity of educating oneself about mental health to advocate effectively for loved ones.

The episode aims to provide hope and practical advice for families dealing with similar situations.

Transcript

TOPIC: Attempting Suicide – “What Did I Do?”

GUEST: Pastor Joshua & Nicole John

Season 4, Episode 9

Nicole John (00:00):

We had to change what was easy to access in the house, too. You know, anything, any medicines had to be locked up. Any sharp items had to be locked up. We actually weren't allowed to bring her home from the hospital until we guaranteed them that we had everything under lock and key.

Ric Shields (00:27):

Thank you for joining us on the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. I'm Ric Shields, your host. We're currently in a series of episodes with a focus on mental health. And while I'm not a mental health professional, I have been fortunate to speak with those who are. Actually, on this episode I'm not speaking with professionals. Instead, I'm speaking with parents of a child who attempted suicide on at least 18 different occasions.

Joshua and Nicole John live in western Wisconsin. It may be the most beautiful part of the state, and it just teams with hills, rivers, forests, lakes, and wildlife. Joshua serves as the pastor of the Assembly of God, church in Alma Center, Wisconsin. I'm so glad, really, that the two of you have joined me today. I'm looking forward, it sounds weird to say that I'm looking forward to this conversation. Thank you for taking this time to share on the podcast with me.

Nicole John (01:22):

Yeah, thanks for having us.

Joshua John (01:23):

Yeah, we're glad to be here.

Nicole John (01:24):

We just want to, before we start, we just want to make sure that everybody knows that we have permission from our daughter to share this that we would never share anything this personal about our children without their permission first.

Ric Shields (01:37):

I know you guys because my wife grew up in the village of Alma Center and attended the church where you now serve as the pastor. Sheila's mother, Wava, still lives there. And her sister and her husband Shannon and Tim Brager recently relocated there. I really hope you guys are taking good care of them for us.

Joshua John (01:54):

It's a tremendous blessing to serve this community. And we appreciate Tim and Shannon being part of our congregation, especially the fact that he liked my biscuits and gravy at our last men's breakfast. That was a good thing. And we appreciate Wava immensely. She's just a blessing to us.

Ric Shields (02:09):

Well, just so you know, for years we have worked really hard with Tim and Shannon to talk to them about relocating to Tulsa, Oklahoma. So far, we've been unsuccessful, but we're praying that the day comes they finally say, “What a great idea!” That would be good.

(02:27):

We're currently sharing a series of episodes on mental health, and I can't imagine talking about mental health and not addressing the subject of suicide or suicidal ideations. I know that you're familiar with this issue in your immediate family. Pastor Joshua, you told me that your second oldest child, a daughter, struggled with suicidal ideations and attempted suicide when she was a teenager in your home. At what point did you first begin to realize that there was this unexpected situation?

Joshua John (02:59):

Honestly, it's just when we got the news that she made her first attempt that I felt blindsided. I didn't see anything coming, probably because I had no idea what signs I should have been aware of what signs I should have looked for in behaviors or attitudes or anything like that. You know, they don't really teach anything like that in parenting classes. It was uncharted territory for me.

(03:25):

You know, looking back, every stereo stereotypical teenage behavior or attitude, I began to question in my mind if maybe I should have paid more attention to that. Maybe that was a marker. Maybe there was something deeper going on in her life and in her mind. I still to this day have a hard time pinpointing even after trying to determine when things turned down that path.

(03:47):

I don't know. I can't put my finger on when it started, or like when, like, this was the turning point. I kept thinking, “Lord, what did I do wrong to cause this?” And I still have a hard time processing everything that we went through. There was just so much.

Ric Shields (04:02):

Isn't that interesting that you're saying, “What did I do to cause this?” as if somehow that you are responsible for this. I don't think that's probably unique, but how difficult that is, that we take that responsibility for it.

Nicole John (04:16):

I think it's almost akin to like the survivor's guilt, where people start to say, “If I had only done this, if I had said this differently, if I had noticed something, we might not have gone down this road.”

Ric Shields (04:30):

I think that mothers think and feel differently about crisis moments like you've described. So let me direct this question then to Nicole. So, what's going on in your mind when you first started to come to grips with this challenge of a child who had attempted suicide?

Nicole John (04:47):

For me, I was pretty overwhelmed. I, you know, I was like, Josh. I didn't see it coming. Not really. We had spent a lot of time taking care of our youngest child who's disabled. And so, we'd been dealing with special needs and disabilities. But we found out that mental health was a really different challenge. And I was frozen at first. I remember sitting in the living room in the chair after she had gone into the hospital for the first time into a mental health institution, and just sitting in the chair for hours and just not even being able to think. I was just frozen. And I really, you know, I wanted to pray, but it was just a lot of, “Dear God. Dear God,” like, knowing that God knew what was going on. And I literally had no more words than that.

(05:33):

I had, I couldn't even say anything. Once I started functioning, I knew we were going to have to get educated. There's a lot of decisions to make and there wasn't a lot of time to make them in. People were throwing things at us really quickly about what we needed to do, where she was, where she needed to go, and the types of treatment. And, you know, we needed to figure out where to send her, how we would pay for it. Does the insurance cover it? How do we keep her safe? How do we support children at home who are scared by what's happening?

(06:06):

The first time I found her, the first time there was an attempt and the kids were with me. It was a how to, like processing, how to deal with what I saw happening. Well, not traumatizing the kids as an ambulance, you know, pulls up and comes through the house and, and takes her out, you know? Then we hit the what do we tell people or not tell people? I'm a type A personality though, so I'm a doer. And I didn't know initially what we should be doing. Every time I made a decision, I literally had to pray about it before I made it because I was always afraid it was going to be the wrong decision. I was afraid that we were going to make another mistake, and the next time we might lose her.

Ric Shields (06:50):

And again, I hear you saying that “We were going to make another mistake.” This guilt of. “Somehow, we must bear responsibility for this.” It's, it's a difficult thing.

(06:59):

Joshua, you were a church staff member when this first happened, is that correct?

Joshua John (07:04):

I honestly, I don't remember <laugh> that was, yeah.

Ric Shields (07:07):

Because you've been on a, you've helped so many ways in so many churches and sometimes you’re staff members, sometimes you're not.

Joshua John (07:13):

I think he was an elder at the time. I might've been on the elder board at that time.

Ric Shields (07:17):

So, what kind of dynamics are present in this situation? You're a member of the elder board on the, at the church, and now your child…and we read 1st Timothy and we say, “Yeah, I'm supposed to be better than this.” We want to manage the affairs of our household well, and we don't feel like that's happening. So, think about some of the dynamics there at the time.

Joshua John (07:39):

Well, you know, we were really heavily involved in the church. Me being on the board, most of our family was involved in one capacity or another, doing some type of ministry, whether it be in the media or on the worship team, or working with the kids in the kids' ministry. I mean, we were pretty much all over the place doing all kinds of ministry. That's why it's hard for me to pinpoint. I'm pretty sure I was only an elder at that time. I had been on staff before, but we had stepped back. But when it happened, we just we reached out to our pastor at the time and we just asked for prayer because that's really all that I knew to do at that point. We had a lot of people that were willing to pray for us. You know, anyone that we asked were like, “Yes, we will, we will join with you together in prayer.”

(08:23):

But the trick there, or the concern that we had was kind of what Nicole had mentioned earlier, is that we just, how much do you disclose in this situation? To you know, the pastoral staff knew, but like, how much does the congregation need to know as far as that, other than there's a situation and you need to pray. And we had to really kind of guard that and be very specific on what could and could not be kind of shared with just the general congregation for our daughter's mental wellbeing. We didn't want to cause any added stress by, well, now all these people know and she's going to have this stigma, stigma as she walks back into the church, you know? And people are going to kind of may be looking at her funny or “Oh, you poor thing,” or whatever. And we didn't want that. We wanted her to feel comfortable when she came back to church. So it was, that was a really hard path to walk too. I can see that with strict information flow.

Nicole John (09:17):

Especially because we're very open people and so for us to not tell people felt like lying.

Ric Shields (09:23):

Nicole, you had other children at home. Were they really old enough to understand what was happening?

Nicole John (09:27):

Well, there was a pretty wide age range. So, they each understood at different levels. She has an older sister who obviously understood a lot more. Her older sister was 18 at the time, but then we'd go all the way down to a 9-year-old. So, there was a wide age range. And the 9-year-old is our special needs child who's cognitively delayed. You know, the kids, they had all lived through medical crises before we had enough ambulance rides and hospital stays that they were familiar with that. And so, they kind of just went into survival mode, like they would when there was a medical crisis. They took care of each other. They would help take care of the house.

(10:04):

The unfortunate problem about that is when you are used to living in that mode and your kids know how to automatically step into that, is they don't always take care of themselves. We don't always take care of ourselves. We just take care of what needs to be taken care of. At the moment, I can almost guarantee you that there were times when the kids were not sharing with us what their needs were. They were just bottling it up, burying it, and doing what they knew needed to be done.

Ric Shields (10:30):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields, and I'm joined on this episode by Pastor Joshua and Nicole John. Their 16-year-old daughter began contemplating suicide, then acting upon those ideas with suicidal attempts. Now friends, these are good people who love Jesus, love their children, love the community of the people they serve. It really doesn't seem right that they were suddenly faced with this crisis that seemed to come out of the blue.

(10:58):

So here you are, you’re unexpectedly faced with so many decisions, not the least of which is how much do we openly share? What kinds of boundaries did you have to consider with family and friends and your community?

Joshua John (11:11):

That is the difficult phase of the process in dealing with this situation. And I really think it depended on the level of friendship we had. You know, most of our family was asked to pray for the situation. So, they knew many of the church pastoral staff, they were aware because they were praying a few families in the church that had dealt with similar situations involving anxiety and depression and things like that. They were in the loop. They were an outlook for our daughter to even go to if need be. So, they kind of knew, but for most people, if they knew at all, the most that they knew was that our daughter was in the hospital. And they didn't know the exact reason. They just knew, oh, she was in a hospital with a medical condition that she doesn't want broadcast, so to speak.

Nicole John (11:57):

I had been facilitating science classes for the homeschool group out of our home at the time, and we would have families who were in and out of our house every week year round. And we would finish a science class, and I'd have to head out right away to go visit her because we tried to visit her inpatient when she was in as often as we could. And we would just, when people asked questions, we would have to say, “Well, you know, she has a medical condition that is private to her, and when she chooses to share it, she will, but if you could just pray for her.” And so that way at least people could have some compassion. We weren't lying about her being in the hospital, but we were very careful just to put it out there that it was hers to share. And we would appreciate people not ask her about it if we had to share something with people. And there were times when it was kind of dicey to not be lying, but to still be protecting her.

Ric Shields (12:50):

So, you're constructing this entirely different system of communication, but there are also communication standards you have to work out with her and some behavioral standards. What can you tell us about the changes you had to make with your daughter and with the rest of your children?

Joshua John (13:07):

Well, for me it was really, it was like walking on eggshells. I didn't know what would possibly cause a regression. Like if I said something, it might send her down the wrong path. And so, I just really restricted my communication because I just didn't want to say anything that would cause harm in any sense. You know, I had to learn to adjust my intonation and my speech, even when I was just talking to the other kids. And if she was in earshot, that even was something that could have affected the way she acted out or behaved or took things or how she felt insecure in that area. And it was difficult.

(13:50):

You know, the question then we also, in interacting with her that we asked had to ask every day and sometimes multiple times a day was when we spoke with her was, “Are you safe?” You know, that was a phrase that the specialists had told us to use. And that was a phrase that she, when she heard that she knew that, you know, that we kind of had to let her know that, that we're not judging. We just we're, we're concerned for your safety. So, you have to answer that honestly. And, so we would ask that a lot of times when we started seeing things, we'd say, “Are you safe?” And that would go one way or the other. And if the answer was “No, I'm feeling bad right now,” then we had to, we had to engage further precautionary measures and possibly even like, bring her back into the hospital.

Nicole John (14:37):

Yeah. We had to change what was easy to access in the house too. You know, anything, any medicines had to be locked up. Any sharp items had to be locked up. We actually weren't allowed to bring her home from the hospital until we them that we had everything under lock and key that it was a safe environment. You know, they had a list of questions. They asked us to make sure that we would not be providing her with another avenue to harm herself. They did a lot of emotional, they had us do a lot of emotional check-ins, like Josh was talking about. And then we started, eventually we implemented that with all the kids, you know, checking in on their emotional status so that we weren't ignoring all the other kids while dealing with her mental health.

Ric Shields (15:22):

Let me just see if I understand that right. This is after the first attempt.

Nicole John (15:27):

So what a lot of people don't know is in Wisconsin, if your child is a minor and makes a suicide attempt and you end up in the hospital, if you do not agree with the mental health person in your community who says that she needs to go inpatient, and you choose not to put your child inpatient, you lose your parental rights immediately. They will take it to a judge and you no longer have contact with your child. So they will start giving you a list of things that you have to do to make sure your child is safe, which they were good things. Like we were appreciative of those things. But it was immediate and it was before she got to come home the first time. We had to guarantee them that we had done all of these things.

Ric Shields (16:13):

And depending upon the persuasion of that mental health professional, they may have some recommendations that are not necessarily in keeping with your belief system.

Nicole John (16:24):

Correct. It was, it was scary

Ric Shields (16:26):

And you're stuck.

Nicole John (16:27):

Yes. Yes, you are. You have no choice. Not if you want to still have access to your child.

Ric Shields (16:32):

They can fill your child with whatever level of persuasion they wish. And you really have no recourse in that at all.

Nicole John (16:41):

No. The best thing you can do is to be involved, to show up to as many sessions as you can show up to when they invite you in to be visiting your child. To be talking openly with the health professionals. They really did want to help our daughter. We did not always agree on some of the things they said, and they had to do their due diligence and make sure we were not abusing our child at home, and that that didn't cause this. And we understand that is their job, but it could get a little dicey when they start asking things so much that you start worrying about, “Are they now planting ideas in your child's head?”

Ric Shields (17:17):

Has the crisis abated, well, the crisis, the several crises, 18 times. Has that abated? And if so, how long did it take?

Joshua John (17:28):

Well, I guess I would say we'd probably move back, move past the crisis stage. Abated? No, absolutely not. I wouldn't say that it's abated. We've basically transitioned into a constant state of potential crisis. And what I mean by that is, even though our daughter has gone through treatment, she's equipped with tools, mentally, physically, to help her through these behaviors or these down times, or the depressed moods, or the anxiousness or whatever triggers the suicidal ideations. You know, they've worked with her multiple times we have of working through that. But there's always that possibility that there's still a bad day. And that's when we may need to drop everything. And whatever we're doing, it doesn’t matter what it is, we need to drop it. And we basically need to invest in her, make sure she's safe, talk with her, and keep her on the phone. Even if we have to get other people that are living where she's living to go and do, you know, check up on her and, and make sure that she's okay.

Ric Shields (18:34):

I'm not asking where she lives. I'm just wondering how far away does she live from where you're at?

Joshua John (18:38):

It's about three hours from where we're at now.

Ric Shields (18:40):

So sometimes you need to make a pretty quick trip.

Joshua John (18:43):

Or a telephone. It's usually a phone call for family members that are still in the area. Yes. We, there's a network of people, and that's key, that are concerned with her and right, and plugged into her life, and that we have permission to contact them if we feel that there's something unsafe going on. And they could go check on her.

Nicole John (19:02):

They've been wonderful. When we moved out of the area the first winter a situation had come up, she had called me in a complete meltdown, panic. I could hear in her voice. It was getting kind of dicey. And it was because something had happened with her car that had just snowballed in her emotionally. And I was able to make a call to a pastor friend of ours down there who really knows cars inside and out, and he was able to go and he dropped everything right away and went and took care of her car in the middle of the grocery store parking lot because he knew the situation and what it had been. So, I mean, the community we have from our church down there, from when we were down there, they still to this day, would drop stuff to help her if need be.

Ric Shields (19:45):

What does the future look like?

Joshua John (19:46):

Well, lots of prayers. Still lots of prayers for her. Lots of prayers for us. You know, we're conscious of the fact that this is still a struggle and a process for her. And really everyone involved, you know, we still struggle with it, too. There's, there's a struggle involved in just us being constantly you know, we could get a phone call or a text or something, and the next thing you know, we're in this emergency rescue mode type thing. And we're trying to, you know, provide those safeguards and we just, you know. The future is really, is we just, we've come to the realization and we, you have to accept it, that there's going to be good days and there's going to be bad days. And, and they're still in front of us both of those types of days. And we just have to hope that there's more good days than bad days.

Nicole John (20:31):

And she does a great job. Like if we're concerned, and maybe it's not necessarily that she's done anything, but I can't contact her for a day, and I get worried, when she contacts me, she's great. She'll start the conversation with, “Mom, I'm safe.” She knows what I need to hear first before we talk about anything else. Like, we have a communication now of words that are the important things that happen first. And we know what that means. So, it's quick.

(20:57):

But she's working hard. She’s done a lot of things, hard things, made decisions for health to do the things that are good and right to make her mind and her body healthy so that she has the best ability to combat these thoughts. And she's made huge strides. She's just done phenomenally. In fact, she will be graduating in May with a dental assistant certificate. She's a full-time student right now. And she's doing phenomenal. I mean, she's on the dean's list. It’s just amazing compared to where she was at, you know, when she was 16, 17, 18. It's, it's a complete night and day difference.

Ric Shields (21:37):

It might be helpful if you could give our listeners some encouragement about how to move forward during a difficult experience like you guys have walked through.

Joshua John (21:46):

I'd say the first thing you have to do is you don't be afraid to talk to your kids. That's a huge key. And be involved in their lives. You have to be involved in their lives. You have to know what's going on, you know, and for us, it was, really, we, in going through that experience, we had to fully rely on the Lord because we, for our strength, because we just, we had no strength to carry on when we were faced with this situation that I really, I would never wish this type of a situation on anyone else. I wouldn't want anyone to ever go through anything like this. It's absolutely emotionally scarring.

Nicole John (22:20):

I would say, too, educate yourself. You need to know about what you're dealing with so you can be an advocate. If you don't know about mental health, and you are dealing with a family member with it, you can't advocate for their wellbeing. You can't help them to make good decisions or support their decision making.

(22:38):

You need to have trustworthy people that you're not going to have to worry about them sharing things inappropriately. And when they offer help take it, like, even if it's a dinner that you could have cooked yourself, take it because then you can put your energy into helping your family members and yourself instead of wearing yourself so thin you can't function anymore.

(22:58):

And then, you know, obviously, like, you know, Josh was saying, pray. Pray even when you don't feel God, because you might not feel him during a tragedy. You might be so much in shock that you're not receiving from him. But if you keep seeking him out, you're going to, you're going to feel him. He's going to show up.

Ric Shields (23:17):

Would you be willing to pray with us? Pray for those who are suffering perhaps with suicidal tendencies. Pray for parents, siblings, and friends of those strugglers.

Nicole John (23:29):

Lord, we just thank you for this opportunity to share our experiences with the hope that Lord, that it can be a help to somebody else, that it could be an encouragement, Lord. And I just pray for those who right now are struggling with suicidal tendencies, that they would seek you out first and foremost, Lord. That they would understand that even when those around them can't understand what's going on in their mind, that you can understand that you would just be ever present to them Lord Jesus. And that if they don't know you, that through this suffering, Lord, that they would find you, that they would have another opportunity to know who you are and to accept you into their lives, Lord.

Joshua John (24:13):

Father, we just ask Lord that in this discussion Lord, if there's something that has spoken to anyone that's listening, we just ask that you would give them discernment and wisdom to pursue that information. Perhaps it is with a family member that is struggling with suicidal ideations or anxiety or depression, or any number of causes that could lead down this path.

(24:36):

And so we just ask Lord that you would just give wisdom to those in these situations. Wisdom and, and comfort, oh Lord. And, and strength. Lord, we, as we found out traveling this road Lord, many times it was not us traveling, but it was you dragging us along and carrying us because we had no strength left. We had absolutely nothing left to give, and we were emotionally, physically, and mentally spent. But Lord, you are the one that brought us through you, carried us through.

(25:04):

And so, I encourage those that are hearing our voices, that they would just trust in you in these situations, God. And even though there doesn't even seem to be a light at the end of the tunnel, and it looks like it's a constant dark path Lord, in you, when we trust and, and throw our lives into your care. Father, we we can trust that you are there to go through those dark times with us, and that is comfort to those that are struggling. And just thank you for your comfort and your love. Jesus. Amen.

Nicole John (25:37):

Amen.

Ric Shields (25:41):

I hope this episode has touched your heart like it has touched mine. The burden of a recurring mental health crisis is difficult for everyone. It can be crushing for the individual in the grip of the crisis and may be overwhelming for extended family and friends and those who are near to the individual.

(25:57):

Not knowing what to do in a crisis can be daunting. Learning in advance how to be helpful may make a significant difference. That's why we're producing this series of episodes. While you won't become a mental health professional by listening, you can gain an understanding that may help you direct people to appropriate resources.

(26:19):

Have these episodes been helpful? Drop me an email at info at doorways.cc and let me know what you've learned. Or if you have a suggestion for a future topic, let me know about that, too.

(26:32):

I pray that you may experience the grace and peace of Christ in your heart and in the hearts of those you hold dear in the days ahead. Thanks for listening.