What's the Worse Thing?

Phil Taylor is an expert on the topic of depression, though not because he has earned advanced degrees on the topic or studied it extensively. He's an expert because he has lived with depression for much of his adult life.

Pastor Taylor shares his personal journey with depression, highlighting the difference between occasional sadness and debilitating clinical depression. He also shares practical coping mechanisms and the significance of receiving help and helping others.

Transcript

TOPIC: Mental Health – What’s the Worse Thing?

GUEST: Phil Taylor

Season 4, Episode 10

Phil Taylor (00:00):

Particularly, among Christians, particularly charismatic Pentecostal folk, where we're just supposed to speak the word, confess it, and go on. And I've been in meetings where somebody's up speaking and saying Christians shouldn't be depressed. And, you know, pastors, we ought to be the most upbeat people. And what a shame it is that there's preachers out there that take medication to treat depression. Well, that ought not to be, that's just demonic or whatever. And kind of wanted to stand up and say, okay, you're talking about me because yeah, I'm, I'm one of those people.

Ric Shields (00:43):

Thank you for joining us today. My name is Ric Shields. I'm the director of the DoorWays® Ministry Network and the host for this podcast.

(00:50):

The episode you're about to hear was previously released last year and was one of our most listened to episodes. It was good enough that I wanted to include it in our series on mental health, and I hope you'll understand why.

(01:04):

today I'm happy to talk with my friend, pastor Phil Taylor. Pastor Phil served as the senior pastor at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma for 38 years before he retired in May of 2023. Pastor Taylor is an expert on the topic of depression, not because he has earned advanced degrees on the topic or studied it extensively. He's an expert because he has lived it for much of his adult life. There were times when it seemed so dark emotionally that he could barely see even a flicker of light. Other times when it seemed to be well managed, and there were even times when depression seemed to have lifted from him. He has lived the full gamut of depression, and I believe he has some important things to say that we will benefit from hearing.

(01:56):

Pastor Phil, I'm really glad that you can be with us for this episode. Thanks for joining us.

Phil Taylor (02:02):

Thank you. It's my privilege to be with you and to share some thoughts today.

Ric Shields (02:07):

Well, I think it's fair to say that everyone has experienced some kind of depression in their lives. Is there a difference between those kinds of experiences and those which you have lived through?

Phil Taylor (02:19):

Yeah. You know, everybody has the blues from time to time. You have a bad day or bad couple of days, or feeling down can be the appropriate response to some of the circumstances of life loss or big changes, those kinds of things. But that's different than a debilitating kind of depression that affects health or your ability to, to function on your job or, to function in your just daily life and relationships and those kinds of things.

(02:50):

So, people that just, boy, I had a, you know, Mondays rainy days and Mondays always get me down. For sure, and it's a great, a great song.  I always loved Karen Carpenter's voice on that, but it's different when it's rainy days and then every day following for a year, six months or whatever.

(03:09):

So, so yeah, there's, there's definitely a difference what some would call clinical depression that needs to be dealt with and treated differently than, well, I'm usually a pretty upbeat guy, and today, not so much.

Ric Shields (03:24):

This is likely a good place for me to say that neither Pastor Phil Taylor nor I are medical or mental health professionals, we're only speaking about topics we've experienced personally. So, if you or a loved one are battling with depression or another mental health disorder, we encourage you to find a physician or a counselor who's trained to help with that issue.

(03:44):

I've done a little research on this topic of depression. I had to do it because depression isn't really my norm. Not that I've never experienced seasons of depression, but it doesn't seem to come in recurring cycles for me. Now, if you'd asked me to do something about anxiety, I maybe could have had a long list of discussion points we could have talked about, but, but the anxiety is different from depression.

(04:08):

These are the top six symptoms of depression that I discovered in my brief research. Number one, it seems to have persistent sadness. Secondly, a loss of interest or pleasure. Third, and these are not in order priority by any means. These are just all things that that exist, right? So, there would be fatigue and low energy. Number four, helplessness and hopelessness. Number five, difficulty concentrating. And number six, changes in sleep and appetite.

(04:39):

So, first, let me ask if those sound familiar to you. And second, is there anything you'd like to add to that list?

Phil Taylor (04:45):

 yeah, those sound familiar. And I think probably a couple things kind of fall under the, the heading of some of those that difficulty in concentrating for me, usually manifested itself in the sense of my indecisiveness, just inability to, to make a decision. I could say, hey, let's, let's go out and eat tonight. And 30 minutes later I'm in tears and just not able to leave the house kind of a thing.

(05:12):

I remember years ago going to Ray Brock, who was a psychologist and a counselor, and he was asking me, what are you afraid of? What are you feeling guilty about? Seemed like, what, what are you angry about? Or whatever. But those were things that were kind of symptomatic as well.

(05:29):

So, I think anxiety attacks and fear kind of fall under that heading too, that fear of, for me, it kind of generalized into, or, specifically into a fear of losing a child and that kind of thing. So anyway, the, I think those were other kind of symptoms probably that, that started to show themselves feelings of the, you mentioned fatigue and low energy, and one of the things people in caring professions, including people in ministry, deal with his burnout and that feeling of just swamped by everything. And so that, I think that kind of falls in that category as well.

Ric Shields (06:07):

Some of these symptoms seem just debilitating. Are they typically expressed one at a time, or do they all seem to hit at once?

Phil Taylor (06:17):

There have been times when at some kind of conference here, fill this out. These are symptoms of depression. Or even a doctor's office may ask you, have you felt this way? Have you felt despondent or feeling hopeless? And there've been times on my journey that I've pretty well been able to check all the boxes. <laugh>, do you feel like running away? Would you like to hide? Do you ever feel like just pulling the covers over your head?

(06:40):

Yeah, absolutely.  I think there are times when they certainly come, maybe if not all at once, they certainly come hand in hand. That persistent sadness kind of lends itself then to fatigue and low energy, and one kind of exacerbates the other. I just feel sad. So consequently, I just stay at home and sit or stay in bed, which then lack of activity causes more fatigue and low energy, and that affects my ability to sleep and affects my appetite, and it makes me feel more hopeless. So, all those things just kind of dovetail one into the other.

Ric Shields (07:18):

One kind of feeds the other even.

Phil Taylor (07:20):

Exactly. I remember one of the things <laugh> one really bad day, and this was back in the eighties, so this has been a long time ago, but,  I was first kind of dealing with just really being in the abyss, was what I called it. I called Ray Brock that evening, and he said, so what have you done today? And I said, well, part of the day I was in a fetal position laying in the floor mm-hmm. Just kind of crying and weeping and angry at God because one of the kids was sick and, and I'd done all my positive confessing and they weren't better and all that. And he said, well, that's the worst thing you could have done. And I said, well, what would've been better? And he said, anything, get up and move. Go for a walk. Get some exercise. Do something that gets you out of that.

(08:06):

 But again, the sadness or the hopelessness or the fatigue, they all kind of feed one another so that it just finally is, is truly debilitating. And sometimes you just have to fight that off physically as well as emotionally and mentally and some of those other things.

Ric Shields (08:23):

How was it possible for you to serve as the lead pastor of a church? Of what, six to 800 people when these symptoms were pretty active in your life? How did you do that?

Phil Taylor (08:35):

Yeah.  You know, one thing, you have <laugh>, you have really good staff around you. When this started, I was the associate pastor, and J. L. McQueen was the pastor. And he had suffered kind of what we would've in, in the old days, would've called a nervous breakdown or nervous exhaustion, or it happened to him when he was the pastor of Central Assembly in Springfield, kind of the headquarters church of the Assemblies of God. And so, he understood what I was dealing with and gave me support and encouragement and prayed for me and counseled me and, and just what a, what a blessing he was.

(09:14):

And so, he kind of showed me how, yeah, you keep going. You kind of learned how to compartmentalize some things, I suppose. I mean, there were days when I wept in the shower that morning thinking, Lord, I don't know if I can do this or not.

(09:29):

And then you get dressed and you think, no, in, in my,  one of the things I kind of relied on was the passage that Paul spoke of, that when we're weak, he manifests his strength and our weakness, and that his grace is sufficient. And I would say, Lord, in my brokenness, if you can use that to, to help mend broken hearts and broken lives, I think it actually probably made me more sensitive to the needs of people.

(09:56):

And, but I prayed, I tried to tell myself the truth about the circumstances, and I'm going to let God be at work today. And then you just get your socks on, get your shoes on, and get out of the house. And once you get moving once again, it kind of helps. It really does. I think one of the things that, we'll, we'll talk about this later, perhaps when we talk about kind of some of the, the ways to deal with this, but part of it, I think, has to do with not focusing on yourself, because it's one of the things that depression does.

(10:29):

It makes us, we're kind of insulated somehow or another, and isolated. And everything's about me. I feel so bad, I'm worthless, I'm helpless, I'm hopeless, and it's all these kind of I me kind of issues that we're dealing with, and everybody be better off without me or whatever the feeling is. But then when we begin to focus on others, what can I do to help others?

(10:53):

 I remember Dr. Brock saying to me, what would you do if you weren't depressed today? Well, I would do this. Well, then take a couple of those things and go do it. So, for me, I think there was probably health and healing that came in pushing beyond what my pain was or my depression to go minister to somebody else and to be focused on, on the needs of others.

(11:16):

And I think that is a pretty good way to move past, some of the depression sometimes is, okay, then I'm going to make this about helping others rather than focused on myself.

Ric Shields (11:28):

Well, spoiler alert, we are going to extend this into two different episodes. And so, if you're listening today as we talk about some of these symptoms, you'll also want to listen next week when we talk about some of the management of those symptoms and how it is that they even come about. So please join us next week as well.

(11:48):

You're listening to the DoorWays® Ministry Network podcast. My name is Ric Shields, and I'm joined on this episode with Reverend Phil Taylor, the pastor emeritus at Carbondale Assembly of God in Tulsa, Oklahoma. Pastor Phil served there at Carbondale for nine years as a youth pastor and associate pastor, followed by 38 years as a senior pastor.

(12:09):

On this episode, we're talking about the topic of depression, kinds of depressions that are personal and affect a person's home, family work, and even their social structures. They may be generally classified as mood disorders, but they're potentially deadly when left unaddressed or untreated.

(12:28):

Again, let me say that neither Pastor Phil nor I or medical or mental health professionals, we're only speaking about topics we've experienced. Personally, if you're a loved one or battling with depression or another mental health disorder, we encourage you to find a physician or a counselor who's trained to help with that issue.

(12:45):

Pastor Phil, you think, am I making this topic of depression sound bigger than it really is?

Phil Taylor (12:50):

No, not at all. People tend to kind of dismiss it, because most of us kind of think, well, you know, hey, we're, we're Americans. We pull ourselves up by our bootstraps and, and we get on with it. I've said that many a time to, to people. Look, if you could do that, trust me, I would've done it.  anything to avoid, the darkness I compared sometimes depression to, feeling like you're living inside a big plastic bag, that debilitating, chronic kind of depression. So that some days it felt like, yeah, that bag is around me, but it's, it's not suffocating me. I just know that I'm in it. It kind of clouds your view and your perspective, and you're aware of it. And then there are other days when, boy, it's, it's up against your face and it feels like you're suffocating under it, the weight of it, and, and the pressure of it.

(13:44):

And so, it, it truly can be debilitating and affect your family and your relationships and your job and, and just your general wellbeing, and eventually can turn to something even more sinister where there’s, self-harm and that kind of thing. So, yeah, I don't, I think there's some danger in dismissing it if somebody says, you know, I feel like maybe I'm depressed, eh, don't worry about it here, drink more coffee. You know, whatever. No, I think it needs to be taken seriously.

Ric Shields (14:13):

And there still is a stigma, it seems when we talk about depression. I remember the story of Tom Eagleton, the United States Senator from Missouri. George McGovern was nominated as the Democratic presidential candidate at the 1972 Democratic Convention in Miami Beach, Florida. And Tom Eagleton was nominated as the vice president just a few days after the convention had ended. It was reported that Senator Eagleton had twice been hospitalized with depression in the 1960s and had received electroshock therapy for treatment. So just 19 days after accepting the nomination, he resigned as the vice presidential candidate.

(14:56):

Perhaps we don't have that same level of stigma today as we did then, but there is still a stigma and people don't really want to talk about suffering with depression.

Phil Taylor (15:07):

Yeah, I think that's true, and particularly, among Christians, particularly charismatic Pentecostal folk, where we're just supposed to speak the word, confess it, and go on. And I've been in meetings where somebody's up speaking and saying, Christians shouldn't be depressed. And, you know, pastors, we ought to be the most upbeat people. And what a shame it is that there's preachers out there that take medication to treat depression. Well, that ought not to be, that's just demonic or whatever. And kind of wanted to stand up and say, okay, you're talking about me because yeah, I'm one of those people.

(15:44):

And, I told someone recently, you know, I've taken medication through the years, I've been off of it. I've been on it again. And for people that say, well, it just shouldn't be, well, you know, yeah, you shouldn't have cancer either, or heart disease or migraine headaches, but it's a physiological, emotional includes all these things. And so, what do you do when you're sick? You get treatment for it. If you've got a headache, you take an aspirin. If you've got clinical depression, if there's a chemical imbalance, the serotonin or whatever is imbalanced, then let's, let's do what we need to do to get better. And, that's absolutely,

(16:24):

That's not, excluding, spiritual care and, and, and help. But I appreciate what, what you said, kind of in that disclaimer a moment ago about, about looking for going to a doctor. And it's one of the first things I would say to anybody that comes to me that's feeling like they've battling with depression or they're just, they can't seem to get beyond this. I always tell people, first thing you need to do is go, go see your doctor. Let's make sure there's not something else going on. Physical problems can cause mental health issues. So maybe there's a deficiency, maybe it's, well, whatever, I won't try to go into the list.

Ric Shields (17:05):

Any number of things.

Phil Taylor (17:06):

Yeah. But there could be a number of things that may be causing some chronic problems. And so, let's eliminate that. Let's start the process there, and then let's look at what are some of the things, you know, well, I've, I've gone through a divorce and I filed bankruptcy, and my mom just died, and I'm having to take care of my, you know, put a list of 13 things. Well, no wonder you're depressed. That would be a normal healthy reaction of the crises that have come into your life. And so don't beat yourself up about that. Now let's figure out how we can cope with that, how, how we can deal with that. I've encouraged people to go to counseling. I think everybody can benefit from that, because I feel like, and through the years counselors that I've talked with and just, colleagues, even all, all of those things are coping tools and mechanisms.

(17:56):

So somebody gives you a tool that you can use to help deal with something just, and again, we may be getting ahead of ourselves a little bit, but just a real simple tool,  years ago that, that, um, a gentleman gave me with three letters, A, B, C, he described the A as an activating event. B stood for belief, and c stood for consequence. And the acting activating event could be anything for me.  I, a lot of times, years ago, I had this fear that something was going to happen to my children. So, all I needed was to see a sick child or know that somebody had just come down with something. And that where they were in the nursery with my kid, that was the activating event. And what I believed, I told myself the wrong thing. Oh yeah, no, that kid had it.

(18:44):

So now my kid's going to get it now. And the consequence is going to be something sinister. After the activating event, I would stop to tell myself the truth. What do I really believe? I believe that, yeah, they were in the nursery, but I have no way of knowing that they even had any contact or played with the same toy or whatever. And the consequence then is, I'm going to believe the truth rather than some lie or some figment of my imagination, something I manufacture well, that simple little coping mechanism for me.

(19:16):

And there's some others that we can share. Boy, that turned out to be a real, a real savior for me sometimes of just forcing myself to speak the truth about what I really know, rather than just letting my mind run with something that would then fuel and kind of feed the, the depression that I was in.

Ric Shields (19:36):

Pastor Phil, I'd like for us to continue this discussion. On our next episode. We can talk then about some of the causes of depression and how it can be managed. Are you okay with that?

Phil Taylor (19:45):

Yeah, that'd be great.

Ric Shields (19:47):

Well, you draw our time to close today. I wonder if you would give a word of encouragement to those who are struggling with depression and then pray for those who seem to be caught in its grip.

Phil Taylor (19:56):

Absolutely. During the, one of those early times, back in the early eighties when I was really struggling, I found the Psalms to be such a help to me. A lot of times, just, I'd opened the, the book of Psalms up and it was like, man, that's exactly what I needed to hear. And one of those times, Psalm 42, it's familiar to a lot of us as the deer panteth for streams of water. So, my soul longs for you. The words Marty Nystrom took to, to make a beautiful worship chorus that we've sung. But it, it says in there, why are you so downcast? Oh, my soul and why so disturbed within me, the psalmist said, my tears have been my food day and night. And people say to me, where's your God? It's like, he's gone from us and these things, I remember he says, I pour out my soul.

(20:48):

He remembered all these things. But then he said, put your hope in God for I will yet praise him, my savior, my God. And he says it again, my bones suffer injury and all these things. Why are you downcast? Oh, my soul, and why do so disturb within me? Put your hope in God for I will yet praising my savior and my God.

(21:09):

And there were times, Ric, in some of that darkness that I would hold onto that verse, that passage of scripture from Psalm 42. I'm going to put my hope in God because the day is going to come. I will yet praising because he's going to rescue me. He's going to bring me through this and out of this.

(21:28):

And indeed, he did. And I can, I could, I could take it to the spot on the church parking lot or walking home one day. It was like, yes, I, I'm out of this. And anyway, there are other specific moments that I knew the Lord had delivered.

(21:42):

So, I would just say, don't give up. If you're feeling in despair today, don’t give up. There's hope for you. Put your hope in the Lord. Trust him again. Next time we'll talk about, some ways maybe that you can help, some practical things you can do. But today, just be encouraged. I'm going to trust the Lord. One more day. I'm going to put my hope in the Lord because I'll yet praise him for the help that he's going to bring.

(22:06):

Father, I thank you that you are the God of all comfort the Bible says, and that you comfort us so that we can in turn comfort others. And so, Lord, I pray that you would lift us up today. And those that are hurting and in despair, someone that's battling with depression, they just feel overwhelmed today.

(22:24):

It's like they've done all they know to do and, and they can't even hold on any longer. They're just weak. But today, Lord, I pray that in their heart and in their spirit, they would find once again that resolve that says, I'm going to put my hope in God. I'm going to trust you because I'll yet see your help. I'll yet see and feel and experience your deliverance. There's a better day coming, Lord.

(22:48):

And so, we trust you today. Give grace and give peace, Lord, as we put our minds upon you, as we focus upon you. I believe you, Lord, to surround your people with your goodness and with your peace. And I thank you for that. In Jesus' name, amen.

Ric Shields (23:08):

Romans 15:13 is one of my favorite verses in the Bible. I think it fits well within the framework of our discussions on mental health. The Apostle Paul wrote, may the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace as you trust in Him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.

(23:29):

Thanks again for listening. I hope you found this podcast to be helpful, and if you did, please feel free to share it with others that you think may benefit from it. Also, I look forward to being with you again next week when Pastor Phil shares with us about some of the common causes and triggers for depression. We'll also talk about some of the ways he's found helpful in managing depression. The conversation will be real, and I hope you'll join us.

(23:54):

Until next time, may you sense God's presence, the love of Jesus, and the grace of the Holy Spirit in your heart, your home, and in the lives of those you hold dear in the days ahead.